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Lightning McQueenie 10-07-2013 03:08 AM

Even though they might not have re-established contact with him, that doesn't mean that they COULDN'T. Actually, a thought I had could be that in the future, Quantum Leap has been like a prototype project for time travelling, and it has been refined (e.g. the Evil Leaper project seems to have more control than Sam's). So in the future, it could be possible that Sam could get into contact with such a future project and use them to help get future knowledge back to his own project. Thereby, Sam's own project can use the future knowledge and try to prevent what has happened by the time Sam is in :)

Sam Beckett Fan 10-07-2013 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
Even though they might not have re-established contact with him, that doesn't mean that they COULDN'T.

If they could why wouldn't they? Al especially would never leave Sam hanging when it wasn't out of his control to. Remember: I was thinking of trying a couple of tin cans on a string.

Mirror Image however does imply that without a leapee in the waiting room they have no way of knowing when and where Sam leaps to and Al can't have 5+ more years worth of correct hunches.
Unless our earlier theory is correct and Sam was in fact in between leaps in his subconscious. Interestingly I just finished reading 'Carny Knowledge' by Ashley McConnel She is one of those who likes to include a prologue and epilogue with Sam in between leaps, drifting disembodied in some void where he speaks with the voice of GFT. In the epilogue of 'Carny Knowledge' Sam actually suggests to himself that he could in fact be drifting within his own mind. One of her more interesting angles.

samnal 10-07-2013 05:51 PM

I am not familiar with your writing, do tell, who do you have Sam with?//quote

I have written over 1000 stories :dreamingfor fan fiction in QL fandom and 8 novels in the Living Year to Year Series, 3 full stand by themselves novels (all published by Mysti Frank, agentwithstyle.com. She may have back copies. I write under Doreen Tracy, and who do I have Sam with? Al, of course. Who else? :-)

blue enigma 10-07-2013 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60583)
If they could why wouldn't they? Al especially would never leave Sam hanging when it wasn't out of his control to. Remember: I was thinking of trying a couple of tin cans on a string.

Yeah, I agree. If they could make contact with Sam they would. There's no way Al would leave Sam out there on his own if he could do anything about it.

My guess is that if Sam continued to leap as himself and there was no one in the waiting room it would probably have to be Sam who makes the contact with the project, maybe through the neural link or maybe even by leaping back to the project between leaps -- if Sam is in control of his leaping as 'Mirror Image' seems to suggest I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do that.

wakkanne 10-07-2013 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma (Post 60585)
My guess is that if Sam continued to leap as himself and there was no one in the waiting room it would probably have to be Sam who makes the contact with the project, maybe through the neural link or maybe even by leaping back to the project between leaps -- if Sam is in control of his leaping as 'Mirror Image' seems to suggest I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do that.

This is something that I want to explore in my own writing. Once Sam has control of his Leaping--whether it be that he can will himself places or that the project is able to successfully retrieve him--why couldn't he Leap home in between missions? That is usually my primary argument for those that say Sam could never Leap home because he knows there's so much good left to be done in the world. Just because he goes home, doesn't mean he can't keep on Leaping, too. :D

blue enigma 10-07-2013 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakkanne (Post 60586)
Just because he goes home, doesn't mean he can't keep on Leaping, too. :D

I agree. :)

Besides, everyone deserves a vacation. Why can't Sam take one?

Sam Beckett Fan 10-07-2013 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakkanne (Post 60586)
This is something that I want to explore in my own writing. Once Sam has control of his Leaping--whether it be that he can will himself places or that the project is able to successfully retrieve him--why couldn't he Leap home in between missions? That is usually my primary argument for those that say Sam could never Leap home because he knows there's so much good left to be done in the world. Just because he goes home, doesn't mean he can't keep on Leaping, too. :D

You know this exactly has been going through my mind recently. It's implied that Alia was able to be retrieved between leaps so why couldn't Sam having developed and accepted the knowledge that Al the Bartender gave him start leaping home every now and then in between putting wrongs right. Hell maybe even taking turns with Al so that lives beyond the limit of Sam's lifetime can also be touched such as Tom Jerett. Mirror's Edge explores there being a line for the accelerator established (since they of course had not expected Sam to be unable to return). Two people were queued, a young ambitious doctor named David and Al.
Personally I would have loved to see Al take on more leaps and see how he would have handled certain situations differently than Sam.
It would be the perfect way to have (god I can't believe I am about to quote this biatch) "the best of both worlds", to still be able to do what he loves, help people in need and yet still have his own life at home.

wakkanne 10-08-2013 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60588)
Personally I would have loved to see Al take on more leaps and see how he would have handled certain situations differently than Sam.
It would be the perfect way to have (god I can't believe I am about to quote this biatch) "the best of both worlds", to still be able to do what he loves, help people in need and yet still have his own life at home.

Hehehe... This is pretty much how I end my fanfiction series once Sam is brought home (which in my case, is 2003--8 years would have made a good run for the original television series). :D Not so much an ending, but the start of a new beginning... ;)

Sam Beckett Fan 10-08-2013 01:21 AM

Such a continuation would far surpass anything involving Al and sammy-Jo as the new partnership. You can not have Al without Sam nor Quantum Leap without Sam.

kiwlinn 10-11-2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma (Post 60211)

Yes, in my opinion Sam's mind is unconsciously blocking out Donna because if he remembered her it would make him want to go home instead of continuing his mission that he wants to keep doing. Donna is a key person on the project and his wife. There really isn't any other way to reconcile why he remembers every other key person on the project but not his own wife -- and it's the one explanation that doesn't make Sam seem like a complete jerk.


I think it's easy to explain why Sam doesn't remember Donna, for a couple of reasons. He didn't remember every key person on the project. In the very beginning, he kept getting Gooshie and Ziggy mixed up, but Al is always talking to Gooshie and telling Sam what Ziggy thinks Sam is there to do, so Sam remembers who they are. Likewise, I don't remember when Tina was first introduced, but Al talks about Tina all the time. The first time Al mentioned Verbeena Beeks, the project psychiatrist (or maybe psychologist, I don't remember), Sam thought Al was talking about some kind of drug! Sam doesn't remember Donna because Al never, ever mentions her.

Yes, he ends up remembering his parents and siblings, but they have always been a part of his life, so things that happen in his leaps trigger memories of them. And, in fact, he remembered Donna when he leapt into the professor in Star Crossed. But our Sam has no memory of being married to her because, in his life experience, he never was. It's a paradox. That's why they weren't supposed to tamper with their own lives. When he made his first leap, he wasn't married. He changed the course of his own life by interacting with Donna in Star Crossed and, when he went home in the Leap Back, somehow his altered life entered his consciousness, but he never lived that life. To me, that's the flaw. He shouldn't have known who Donna was. Well, I guess he might have recognized her, but he shouldn't have known she was his wife. He asked her how he could have ever left her, but she wasn't his wife when he left!

Whatever, it's a sticky situation, but just the fact that Al specifically never mentions Donna is, to me, reason enough to understand why Sam never remembers her. Remembering tidbits about your family is understandable, but most people would want to forget someone who left them at the altar!

(You know, there was a foreshadowing that he was married early on, in the Americanization of Machismo, at the very end when he's about to get married. He's concerned that he's not going to leap out before the "I do's" and he says "Al, I'm sweating here!" Al says something like "Not like you've never been here before." Sam gets a very concerned look and asks "Am I married?" Al quickly says "Just kidding!", but, as he turns from Sam, he rolls his eyes as if to say that he almost blew it. The conversation ends there as the bride enters and the Wedding March begins.)

blue enigma 10-13-2013 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwlinn (Post 60600)
I think it's easy to explain why Sam doesn't remember Donna, for a couple of reasons. He didn't remember every key person on the project. In the very beginning, he kept getting Gooshie and Ziggy mixed up, but Al is always talking to Gooshie and telling Sam what Ziggy thinks Sam is there to do, so Sam remembers who they are. Likewise, I don't remember when Tina was first introduced, but Al talks about Tina all the time. The first time Al mentioned Verbeena Beeks, the project psychiatrist (or maybe psychologist, I don't remember), Sam thought Al was talking about some kind of drug! Sam doesn't remember Donna because Al never, ever mentions her.

Yes, he ends up remembering his parents and siblings, but they have always been a part of his life, so things that happen in his leaps trigger memories of them. And, in fact, he remembered Donna when he leapt into the professor in Star Crossed. But our Sam has no memory of being married to her because, in his life experience, he never was. It's a paradox. That's why they weren't supposed to tamper with their own lives. When he made his first leap, he wasn't married. He changed the course of his own life by interacting with Donna in Star Crossed and, when he went home in the Leap Back, somehow his altered life entered his consciousness, but he never lived that life. To me, that's the flaw. He shouldn't have known who Donna was. Well, I guess he might have recognized her, but he shouldn't have known she was his wife. He asked her how he could have ever left her, but she wasn't his wife when he left!

Whatever, it's a sticky situation, but just the fact that Al specifically never mentions Donna is, to me, reason enough to understand why Sam never remembers her. Remembering tidbits about your family is understandable, but most people would want to forget someone who left them at the altar!

I've already very specifically commented on why I think 'Star Crossed' is terrible and why it makes Sam look terrible, so I don't want to harp on that, lol. In general the Donna story arc is flawed writing and both episodes are flawed. Certainly the continuity is flawed. No doubt they weren't thinking at the time about TV shows being on DVD and that people would be able to watch them hundreds of times and analyze them. So they didn't worry about it.

While early in his leaping Sam forgot the key people and got them mixed up, post 'The Leap Back' he didn't anymore, so he should have had no problem with remembering Donna either at that point since she was there when he went back -- in my opinion. I agree, it's definitely a flaw in the writing that he doesn't remember both timelines, pre-'Star Crossed' and post-'Star Crossed' -- or like you mentioned he should remember just the first timeline if he's only remembering one of them. Maybe it is only because Al doesn't mention her - but that's a problem right there. The whole 'he couldn't do his job if he knew about me so you're not to tell him' doesn't work for me for so many reasons it would be another conversation. Also, since Sam still doesn't remember her or even know about her in 'Mirror Image' then it means he chose to never leap home without knowledge of a wife he's abandoned at home. He's therefore made a choice that was not completely informed, which is also a problem for me. And if it's because he's created a paradox by tampering with his own life then he needs to fix that -- because it wasn't only his life that he tampered with. He tampered with hers, too, and it's not like he had her permission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwlinn (Post 60600)
(You know, there was a foreshadowing that he was married early on, in the Americanization of Machismo, at the very end when he's about to get married. He's concerned that he's not going to leap out before the "I do's" and he says "Al, I'm sweating here!" Al says something like "Not like you've never been here before." Sam gets a very concerned look and asks "Am I married?" Al quickly says "Just kidding!", but, as he turns from Sam, he rolls his eyes as if to say that he almost blew it. The conversation ends there as the bride enters and the Wedding March begins.)

I always thought Al was just pulling Sam's leg at the end of 'The Americanization of Machiko'. He is very careful throughout the series about what he does and does not reveal to Sam.

Sam Beckett Fan 10-13-2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwlinn (Post 60600)
I think it's easy to explain why Sam doesn't remember Donna, for a couple of reasons. He didn't remember every key person on the project. In the very beginning, he kept getting Gooshie and Ziggy mixed up, but Al is always talking to Gooshie and telling Sam what Ziggy thinks Sam is there to do, so Sam remembers who they are. Likewise, I don't remember when Tina was first introduced, but Al talks about Tina all the time. The first time Al mentioned Verbeena Beeks, the project psychiatrist (or maybe psychologist, I don't remember), Sam thought Al was talking about some kind of drug! Sam doesn't remember Donna because Al never, ever mentions her.

Yes, he ends up remembering his parents and siblings, but they have always been a part of his life, so things that happen in his leaps trigger memories of them. And, in fact, he remembered Donna when he leapt into the professor in Star Crossed. But our Sam has no memory of being married to her because, in his life experience, he never was. It's a paradox. That's why they weren't supposed to tamper with their own lives. When he made his first leap, he wasn't married. He changed the course of his own life by interacting with Donna in Star Crossed and, when he went home in the Leap Back, somehow his altered life entered his consciousness, but he never lived that life. To me, that's the flaw. He shouldn't have known who Donna was. Well, I guess he might have recognized her, but he shouldn't have known she was his wife. He asked her how he could have ever left her, but she wasn't his wife when he left!

Whatever, it's a sticky situation, but just the fact that Al specifically never mentions Donna is, to me, reason enough to understand why Sam never remembers her. Remembering tidbits about your family is understandable, but most people would want to forget someone who left them at the altar!

(You know, there was a foreshadowing that he was married early on, in the Americanization of Machismo, at the very end when he's about to get married. He's concerned that he's not going to leap out before the "I do's" and he says "Al, I'm sweating here!" Al says something like "Not like you've never been here before." Sam gets a very concerned look and asks "Am I married?" Al quickly says "Just kidding!", but, as he turns from Sam, he rolls his eyes as if to say that he almost blew it. The conversation ends there as the bride enters and the Wedding March begins.)

It happens that I gave pretty much the same explanation in the thread for The Leap Back. This and because Deborah Pratt was unhappy with the episode and preferred Sam in a serious in-leap relationship, hence Abigail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma
I always thought Al was just pulling Sam's leg at the end of 'The Americanization of Machiko'. He is very careful throughout the series about what he does and does not reveal to Sam.

Why then did he get this expression after saying "just kidding" which clearly stated that he'd very nearly slipped? True he's very careful but he's a human being he can make mistakes.

blue enigma 10-13-2013 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60606)
Why then did he get this expression after saying "just kidding" which clearly stated that he'd very nearly slipped? True he's very careful but he's a human being he can make mistakes.

Of course. I had just always thought that he was intentionally kidding with Sam.

Regarding memory of the timelines I always thought that based on 'Honeymoon Express' Al remembered both timelines, maybe due to the neural link with Ziggy and Sam. So it seemed to me that Sam should remember both too, since he's part of the same link. In which case it seems to me that Sam should remember both timelines with Donna.

Sam Beckett Fan 10-13-2013 06:55 PM

Actually no, the difference is that the new timeline can effect Al because he's there to experience it. Examples: The chairmen of the committee becoming Diane McBride, his walking out of the imagining chamber to find Donna suddenly at the project. Though we don't actually see that last the fact that he didn't know the outcome of Sam's actions straight away suggests that he is effected only after exiting the imaging chamber. Please note the word 'SUGGESTS'; I am well aware that Al could have simply been making a point as well as honoring his promise to Donna. I am working with the message I got from it and I am not alone. Two of the novels (Mirror's Edge and Knights of the Morningstar) explore Al having been heavily effected by leaving the imagining chamber and finding Donna suddenly at the project.
Ashely McConnell while she doesn't use Donna does use the perspective in Random Measures that leaving the imagining chamber is what triggers the effect of a project change on Al.
The difference with Diane McBride is that Al was not in the imagining chamber when the result appeared but right in front of it.

This however is unexplainably contradicted in season 5 when he reveals a memory of a conversation he had with Sammy Jo seconds after the change that put her at the project was made. A memory he somehow had before leaving the imagining chamber and actually experiencing the change.
I am going to ignore this.

I kinda went over this as well in the The Leap Back thread. Sam can barely keep track of the original timeline. His memory is altered with each leap and just as there are some which are always maintained such as Elk Ridge there are also some which are never included such as the specific sciences of the project nor most likely the staff other than the names and their functions which he hears from Al. This is supported by The Leap Back as we see him retrieving his full memories while stuck in the imagining chamber.
Example: "Ziggy the parallel...the parallel hybrid computer that I designed to run project Quantum Leap."
"Oh the computer with the big ego."
"Right and installing that ego was a breakthrough, without it Ziggy would be just another big number cruncher...AL! I'm getting my memory back!"

It's also frequently (and hilariously) pointed out that Sam can't even remember the leaping rules he himself set to ensure the safety of himself and the present/future.
It wasn't until he re-entered the present time that his full memory returned somewhat like Al stepping out of the imagining chamber after a change is made and we don't know that Sam didn't still remember Donna standing him up at the alter.

So true he SHOULD remember both timelines but I don't think he CAN due to his position.

blue enigma 10-13-2013 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60608)
Actually no, the difference is that the new timeline can effect Al because he's there to experience it. Examples: The chairmen of the committee becoming Diane McBride, his walking out of the imagining chamber to find Donna suddenly at the project. Though we don't actually see that last the fact that he didn't know the outcome of Sam's actions straight away suggests that he is effected only after exiting the imaging chamber. Please note the word 'SUGGESTS'; I am well aware that Al could have simply been making a point as well as honoring his promise to Donna. I am working with the message I got from it and I am not alone. Two of the novels (Mirror's Edge and Knights of the Morningstar) explore Al having been heavily effected by leaving the imagining chamber and finding Donna suddenly at the project.
Ashely McConnell while she doesn't use Donna does use the perspective in Random Measures that leaving the imagining chamber is what triggers the effect of a project change on Al.
The difference with Diane McBride is that Al was not in the imagining chamber when the result appeared but right in front of it.

This however is unexplainably contradicted in season 5 when he reveals a memory of a conversation he had with Sammy Jo seconds after the change that put her at the project was made. A memory he somehow had before leaving the imagining chamber and actually experiencing the change.
I am going to ignore this.

I kinda went over this as well in the The Leap Back thread. Sam can barely keep track of the original timeline. His memory is altered with each leap and just as there are some which are always maintained such as Elk Ridge there are also some which are never included such as the specific sciences of the project nor most likely the staff other than the names and their functions which he hears from Al. This is supported by The Leap Back as we see him retrieving his full memories while stuck in the imagining chamber.
Example: "Ziggy the parallel...the parallel hybrid computer that I designed to run project Quantum Leap."
"Oh the computer with the big ego."
"Right and installing that ego was a breakthrough, without it Ziggy would be just another big number cruncher...AL! I'm getting my memory back!"
It's also frequently (and hilariously) pointed out that Sam can't even remember the leaping rules he himself set to ensure the safety of himself and the present/future.
It wasn't until he re-entered the present time that his full memory returned somewhat like Al stepping out of the imagining chamber after a change is made and we don't know that Sam didn't still remember Donna standing him up at the alter.

So true he SHOULD remember both timelines but I don't think he CAN due to his position.

I can see your point that due to Sam's position maybe he can't remember both timelines even though he should. The theory of being aware of both timelines in the imaging chamber but not after leaving it or vice versa is an interesting one. Since this is a time travel show some of the problems with the continuity, including what they do or do not remember, can easily be explained away with changing timelines, where the rules actually are changing and affecting how the project and quantum leaping works. There is an episode where Sam does remember in leap that he lost Tom and got him back. I can't remember which episode it was but he says something along the lines of 'I lost my brother but I got him back'. So that's an example where while leaping he remembers or at least has knowledge of two different timelines, so that's another contradiction.

As the series went on it seemed to me that Sam became less Swiss cheesed in leap though, and by 'Mirror Image' he didn't seem to be Swiss cheesed at all. That's how I perceived it, other people may have seen it differently.

Sam Beckett Fan 10-13-2013 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue engima
There is an episode where Sam does remember in leap that he lost Tom and got him back. I can't remember which episode it was but he says something along the lines of 'I lost my brother but I got him back'. So that's an example where while leaping he remembers or at least has knowledge of two different timelines, so that's another contradiction.

I forgot about this, but you are right. Rebel Without a Clue, Ernie the kindly diner owner whose waiting for his son's safe return from Korea inquires if Sam (Shane) has ever lost someone.
"Yeah...but I got him back."
It seemed the memory had actually just come to him in that moment as there was a pause between the two answers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma
As the series went on it seemed to me that Sam became less Swiss cheesed in leap though, and by 'Mirror Image' he didn't seem to be Swiss cheesed at all. That's how I perceived it, other people may have seen it differently.

I agree with this. It's something I have noticed as well though it's to a certain extent. As I pointed out before there are still some memories which seemingly by the choice of GFT never resurface. It's somewhat clear that his memories of the project are in fact actually memories of what Al has told him about the project which is very different.

And I know I use this a lot but Mirror's Edge explores that while Sam can remember making a change such as saving Tom, he has no memory of existing in a timeline where Tom came home from Vietnam and if you want to get really complex technically he didn't. Sam himself basically explains that he remembers that Tom had been killed and saving him but has no memory of greeting his safe return, what career he went into, attending each other's weddings, nieces and nephews from him and other such things. Personally though I am unsure how to explain it, I make sense of this.
(Hell I can't help that this novel explores such brilliant concepts XD)

Now in regards to Mirror Image there can be controversy over the explanation of that unusual leap. Personally I like the one Lightning McQueenie came up with that it was in fact in between leaps within his subconscious. This would explain all the familiar faces from previous leaps as well as those with nicknames matching the names of his staff.

wakkanne 10-13-2013 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma (Post 60605)
The whole 'he couldn't do his job if he knew about me so you're not to tell him' doesn't work for me for so many reasons it would be another conversation. Also, since Sam still doesn't remember her or even know about her in 'Mirror Image' then it means he chose to never leap home without knowledge of a wife he's abandoned at home. He's therefore made a choice that was not completely informed, which is also a problem for me. And if it's because he's created a paradox by tampering with his own life then he needs to fix that -- because it wasn't only his life that he tampered with. He tampered with hers, too, and it's not like he had her permission.

OH MY GOSH, I am so loving you right now! :D I don't buy Donna's reasoning one bit, myself. I almost want to say that I think Sam might actually do what he did BETTER if he knew he had a wife waiting for him at home. Almost like a driving force, making him want to make his future better for his family and wanting to do an even better job to put him that much closer to the day that he did leap home. And if he was actually able to control his own leaps by the end of the series, then as we discussed earlier, what's to keep him from going home between each leap to be with his family? There was just so much untapped potential in that show sometimes, it's driven me to fanfiction to right what the writers once put wrong. ;)

wakkanne 10-13-2013 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma (Post 60607)
Regarding memory of the timelines I always thought that based on 'Honeymoon Express' Al remembered both timelines, maybe due to the neural link with Ziggy and Sam. So it seemed to me that Sam should remember both too, since he's part of the same link. In which case it seems to me that Sam should remember both timelines with Donna.

I agree with this 100%. In fact, I explore the theory quite often in my writing regarding the people back at the project as Sam keeps changing the past and therefore their future. In my stories, only those tied in through Ziggy somehow are able to remember the changes. For the others at the project, like Dr. Beeks or Gooshie, the change in their minds seems instantaneous and they don't remember the former timeline at all. Only Ziggy can help to keep everyone in check. Even so, I write that as time goes on the new change becomes more prominent in the minds of those connected through Ziggy, while the old timeline fades more into the background like a dream, but hopefully, is never completely forgotten. Sam's all swiss-cheesed, so he's no help in remembering multiple timelines all the time, but I'd like to think that once he got home, that like Al, Sam would remember how he changed things as well as how they used to be.

Another thing that I don't buy in The Leap Back is how Sam rapidly forgets everything that happened over the past four years of his leaping. I'd like to think that Sam eventually remembers everything that he's done. Sam thrives on his accomplishments. Of knowing the satisfaction of a job well done. I want him to remember all of the people he's helped and look back on that with pride. Once home, he might not remember everything at first, but there will be things in his life that remind him of certain Leaps and so long as he doesn't leap again to scramble his memory up, his photographic memory should preserve them from then on. I actually like to think that all those voice overs of him narrating his adventures throughout the series is actually Sam writing his memoirs once he returns home. It's a happy thought in my mind and I like to keep it that way. :)

Sam Beckett Fan 10-14-2013 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakkanne (Post 60611)
OH MY GOSH, I am so loving you right now! :D I don't buy Donna's reasoning one bit, myself. I almost want to say that I think Sam might actually do what he did BETTER if he knew he had a wife waiting for him at home. Almost like a driving force, making him want to make his future better for his family and wanting to do an even better job to put him that much closer to the day that he did leap home. And if he was actually able to control his own leaps by the end of the series, then as we discussed earlier, what's to keep him from going home between each leap to be with his family? There was just so much untapped potential in that show sometimes, it's driven me to fanfiction to right what the writers once put wrong. ;)

Personally I believe this as well, as does Scott. That knowing Donna supports him would give him the confidence he needs to know he isn't hurting her and the strength to continue. She could have even taken turns with Al as the observer so that she could still spend time with him even if they couldn't touch, kiss or make love.

blue enigma 10-14-2013 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakkanne (Post 60612)
I agree with this 100%. In fact, I explore the theory quite often in my writing regarding the people back at the project as Sam keeps changing the past and therefore their future. In my stories, only those tied in through Ziggy somehow are able to remember the changes. For the others at the project, like Dr. Beeks or Gooshie, the change in their minds seems instantaneous and they don't remember the former timeline at all. Only Ziggy can help to keep everyone in check. Even so, I write that as time goes on the new change becomes more prominent in the minds of those connected through Ziggy, while the old timeline fades more into the background like a dream, but hopefully, is never completely forgotten. Sam's all swiss-cheesed, so he's no help in remembering multiple timelines all the time, but I'd like to think that once he got home, that like Al, Sam would remember how he changed things as well as how they used to be.

Yeah, I like this interpretation and this is kind of the way I have it in my head. I go a little further with it, that since after 'Mirror Image' Sam is less Swiss cheesed [to me he seems that way in the episode] he should be able to remember things about his life, from both timelines, at least when he needs that information for a specific leap. In 'A Leap for Lisa' he's able to hold onto the memory of Al by sheer will after history changes and Al is executed, and he does it even while it's threatening to slip away. He remembers that Al was important to him, that Al and Tina were lovers in the other timeline, etc. So I think Sam is definitely capable of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakkanne (Post 60612)
Another thing that I don't buy in The Leap Back is how Sam rapidly forgets everything that happened over the past four years of his leaping. I'd like to think that Sam eventually remembers everything that he's done. Sam thrives on his accomplishments. Of knowing the satisfaction of a job well done. I want him to remember all of the people he's helped and look back on that with pride. Once home, he might not remember everything at first, but there will be things in his life that remind him of certain Leaps and so long as he doesn't leap again to scramble his memory up, his photographic memory should preserve them from then on.

I agree. I wasn't really on board with the reverse Swiss cheese effect either. Sam should know what he's accomplished, and I think 'Mirror Image' kind of points to that, even though he's still leaping and not home. Plus I don't think it's right that Al should have to bear the burden of having all the knowledge alone. He needs a break too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakkanne (Post 60612)
I actually like to think that all those voice overs of him narrating his adventures throughout the series is actually Sam writing his memoirs once he returns home. It's a happy thought in my mind and I like to keep it that way. :)

:) I had the same thought about the narration being Sam either writing his memoirs or reporting back to the committee or maybe even telling his children and grandchildren about his experiences. I don't think Sam is the type of guy who goes around narrating his life just because. And this is also why I think we don't have to necessarily accept that Sam never returned home. The way things stood at the exact end of the leap to Beth, Sam never returned home, just as at the end of 'The Leap Home' Sam made the winning basket but Tom still died -- until the next leap. So after he left Beth? The last screen can be looked like any other end of a leap. Instead of Al reading off the hand link, telling us what happened at the end of this particular leap after Sam has made the changes, we get black screens. And with the next leap things can change again.

Sam Beckett Fan 10-14-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma
And this is also why I think we don't have to necessarily accept that Sam never returned home. The way things stood at the exact end of the leap to Beth, Sam never returned home, just as at the end of 'The Leap Home' Sam made the winning basket but Tom still died -- until the next leap. So after he left Beth? The last screen can be looked like any other end of a leap.

Agreed I refuse to accept that Sam never returned home. He wouldn't do that to his family and staff who have given their lives to finding a way for his safe return. I like this viewpoint of the concept that Sam never returning home is simply one changeable result. Al the Bartender made that clear to him, that his returning home contrary to the assumption the project had been working with is in fact a choice. Hence why I keep thinking that he should be doing so in between leaps and doing hand offs with Al. This way he still gets to be involved with his family and Donna.
I often find myself thinking of his poor mother whom by 1999 (just since it's the one present year we know) is probably at that point where it's a blessing to wake up each morning and her second son has seemingly barely been in contact with her for years if you want to work with the Mirror's Edge concept that pre-leap Sam was a workaholic. In this way his saving Tom may have extended Thelma's life to have one more child still in it and more grandchildren.
Though I am not a Sammy Jo fan I would like to think that she should at least be revealed to Thelma so that she could have the satisfaction of a grandchild from Sam. Since there is every chance in the world that she wouldn't live to see his return home.

Lightning McQueenie 11-14-2013 09:54 AM

After having relived Season 1 alongside the Quantum Leap podcast, something struck me. Many of the leaps in Season 1 had "mini missions" that needed to be completed alongside the main mission in order for Sam to leap. Such examples include helping Buddy Holly write the lyrics to Peggy Sue, as Don Gino picking the right Bingo number, and changing Miss Melanie's beliefs and thus her influence helping to integrate the Southern town. Could it be that GFTW wouldn't let Sam leap until these mini-missions were completed so that Sam would learn to not completely rely on Ziggy and trust his own instincts (which are nearly always right)?

Lightning McQueenie 11-14-2013 10:57 AM

Also, can I say I had a great time re-reading this thread from start to finish, I loved the discussions.

On the subject of what is able to be remembered from the changing timelines, I believe that both Sam and Al do remember what has happened in both timelines, because of their neural link to Ziggy. There is a lot of evidence to suggest this, such as Sam doing his best to remember Al after Al was erased from existence, Al realising the change in committee from Whitesman to Diane McBride, Sam remembering that he'd lost his brother but got him back.

So if he remembers all timelines, why can't he remember Donna? Because his subconscious won't let him! It all comes back to what I suggested right at the beginning of this thread. Since Sam is the one leaping himself around from his desire to make the world a better place, he has subconsciously blocked out anything that could prevent him from completing his missions. This is why he recovers a great deal of his memory, but not this one significant factor.

Another interesting thing to note is that he does not remember Sammy Jo (even though he vows to). Ziggy is 100% correct that Sam won't remember her. How would Ziggy know this? Because SHE IS SAM - or at least, she is partly Sam. He put his heart and soul into her creation, and she even contains part of his brain. Ziggy, being a computer, can't understand human emotion, but she CAN sense it, and so understand's Sam and what he will and won't allow himself to remember to continue and succeed in his missions. The knowledge of having a daughter and a wife waiting for him at home could be enough to send Sam over the edge and give his life's work the flick and decide to go home, so he subconsciously has blocked them out, to prevent them from affecting his decisions.

blue enigma 11-14-2013 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60728)
On the subject of what is able to be remembered from the changing timelines, I believe that both Sam and Al do remember what has happened in both timelines, because of their neural link to Ziggy. There is a lot of evidence to suggest this, such as Sam doing his best to remember Al after Al was erased from existence, Al realising the change in committee from Whitesman to Diane McBride, Sam remembering that he'd lost his brother but got him back.

So if he remembers all timelines, why can't he remember Donna? Because his subconscious won't let him! It all comes back to what I suggested right at the beginning of this thread. Since Sam is the one leaping himself around from his desire to make the world a better place, he has subconsciously blocked out anything that could prevent him from completing his missions. This is why he recovers a great deal of his memory, but not this one significant factor.

Another interesting thing to note is that he does not remember Sammy Jo (even though he vows to). Ziggy is 100% correct that Sam won't remember her. How would Ziggy know this? Because SHE IS SAM - or at least, she is partly Sam. He put his heart and soul into her creation, and she even contains part of his brain. Ziggy, being a computer, can't understand human emotion, but she CAN sense it, and so understand's Sam and what he will and won't allow himself to remember to continue and succeed in his missions. The knowledge of having a daughter and a wife waiting for him at home could be enough to send Sam over the edge and give his life's work the flick and decide to go home, so he subconsciously has blocked them out, to prevent them from affecting his decisions.

Yep. I agree with all of this. :)

Sam Beckett Fan 11-14-2013 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60726)
After having relived Season 1 alongside the Quantum Leap podcast, something struck me. Many of the leaps in Season 1 had "mini missions" that needed to be completed alongside the main mission in order for Sam to leap. Such examples include helping Buddy Holly write the lyrics to Peggy Sue, as Don Gino picking the right Bingo number, and changing Miss Melanie's beliefs and thus her influence helping to integrate the Southern town. Could it be that GFTW wouldn't let Sam leap until these mini-missions were completed so that Sam would learn to not completely rely on Ziggy and trust his own instincts (which are nearly always right)?

The 'Peggy Sue' lyrics was not as you say a "mini mission". It turned out it was the primary reason for the leap.
What Sam had under assumption been trying to accomplish, getting Tess to marry Doc, was clarified to not have been meant to be. She had been meant to marry a man who had been writing her love letters and the way Sam left the ranch that was still what happened.
This is also clarified in Honeymoon Express:
"You expect us to believe that God leaped Dr. Beckett into 1956 just to help Buddy Holly with the lyrics to 'Peggy Sue'?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
Since Sam is the one leaping himself around from his desire to make the world a better place, he has subconsciously blocked out anything that could prevent him from completing his missions.

Sorry I disagree. Sam's control on the subconscious level (which is what it was before he realized he had the ability of control) was occasional. Example, if his mind had taken control every time why did he sit in the electric chair terrified and panicking in Last Dance... until the millisecond before it was turned on?

I addition when Donna asked Sam if he could act freely knowing he was married he answered "I don't know". So he never really made that decision.

As for Sammy Jo, you argued against yourself in a way. If he controlled what he did and didn't remember, how did he vow to remember Sammy Jo and then not? Why would she even get in the way of his performance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
Because SHE IS SAM - or at least, she is partly Sam. He put his heart and soul into her creation, and she even contains part of his brain.

That is not canon, but rather a concept used by the novels which are simply legally published fanfictions. The show does not discuss this.

blue enigma 11-15-2013 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60730)
I addition when Donna asked Sam if he could act freely knowing he was married he answered "I don't know". So he never really made that decision.

Well, he never consciously made that decision. People do things and aren't always aware why, and I think Lightning McQueenie is suggesting that Sam subconsciously made the decision (if I'm understanding the comment right) and subconsciously blocked her out because it would interfere with his mission. But he's not necessarily aware that he did that or why. It's a plausible theory.

Why Sam waited until the last possible moment to leap in Last Dance Before an Execution is a little more complicated to explain. Part of what becomes clear in Mirror Image is that Sam is leaping Sam (at least according to the bartender), but Sam doesn't yet believe it. So there might be some of that going on in Last Dance. Or there may be a darker aspect to it -- maybe Sam in those last minutes in the electric chair believes that death is the only way to get off the crazy ride he's on, then at the very last moment changes his mind. There's one point where he says something to Al and I'm not sure if it's "I want to go home, Al" or "It's time to go home, Al."

Lightning McQueenie 11-15-2013 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60730)
The 'Peggy Sue' lyrics was not as you say a "mini mission". It turned out it was the primary reason for the leap.
What Sam had under assumption been trying to accomplish, getting Tess to marry Doc, was clarified to not have been meant to be. She had been meant to marry a man who had been writing her love letters and the way Sam left the ranch that was still what happened.

There is no evidence to suggest that Sam's main mission wasn't to get Tess to marry the man who was writing her the love letters. And besides, Buddy Holly must have been able to write the lyrics without Sam's intervention, how else would Sam have known them to begin with? Unless of course we're expected to believe something similar to LHO where in the original timeline, the song "Peggy Sue" didn't exist and only did because Sam helped Buddy Holly with the lyrics. I seriously doubt this though, because both Sam and Al recognised the tune when Buddy was playing it.

Quote:

This is also clarified in Honeymoon Express:
"You expect us to believe that God leaped Dr. Beckett into 1956 just to help Buddy Holly with the lyrics to 'Peggy Sue'?"
This I believe is a misunderstanding on Al's part, since Sam leapt immediately after helping him, perhaps Al took this to mean that it was Sam's mission. But like I said, it can't possibly have been because the song already existed.

Quote:

Sorry I disagree. Sam's control on the subconscious level (which is what it was before he realized he had the ability of control) was occasional. Example, if his mind had taken control every time why did he sit in the electric chair terrified and panicking in Last Dance... until the millisecond before it was turned on?
Maybe because he didn't KNOW he actually did have that level of control, and was doing everything he could to try to prevent himself from dying. Are you seriously going to tell me that you aren't going to panic if you were being put in the electric chair? You never know what you're capable of until you're put into a situation where you have to utilise your capabilities. And even then, Sam never believed he did it himself, as in Mirror Image he still believed GFTW was leaping him around. He just believed that GFTW leaped him at the last second.

Quote:

I addition when Donna asked Sam if he could act freely knowing he was married he answered "I don't know". So he never really made that decision.
He couldn't even remember the things he'd done in the leaps, how could he answer that question?

Quote:

As for Sammy Jo, you argued against yourself in a way. If he controlled what he did and didn't remember, how did he vow to remember Sammy Jo and then not? Why would she even get in the way of his performance?
There is a difference between the conscious and subconscious. He wouldn't want to abandon his daughter, but deep down he knew he had to.

Quote:

That is not canon, but rather a concept used by the novels which are simply legally published fanfictions. The show does not discuss this.
We know that Sam and Al have their neurons and mesons linked, which is through Ziggy. So Ziggy must contain part of his brain, or at least, have full access to it.

QL Nut 11-16-2013 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma (Post 60732)
Well, he never consciously made that decision. People do things and aren't always aware why, and I think Lightning McQueenie is suggesting that Sam subconsciously made the decision (if I'm understanding the comment right) and subconsciously blocked her out because it would interfere with his mission. But he's not necessarily aware that he did that or why. It's a plausible theory.

Why Sam waited until the last possible moment to leap in Last Dance Before an Execution is a little more complicated to explain. Part of what becomes clear in Mirror Image is that Sam is leaping Sam (at least according to the bartender), but Sam doesn't yet believe it. So there might be some of that going on in Last Dance. Or there may be a darker aspect to it -- maybe Sam in those last minutes in the electric chair believes that death is the only way to get off the crazy ride he's on, then at the very last moment changes his mind. There's one point where he says something to Al and I'm not sure if it's "I want to go home, Al" or "It's time to go home, Al."

The entire issue always was Sam's denial. If Sam indeed always controlled his own leaps, he never believed it. Perhaps Al and Ziggy are to blame a little bit for this as well, as they were not aware of this either and always egged on the concept that GFTW was leaping Sam.

In "Last Dance Before An Execution," what we may be seeing is a panicked Sam who is unaware of his own power, so to speak. Out of desperation/fear/adrenaline, Sam possibly leapt himself out.

On the other hand, if we're subscribing to the theory that Sam controls his own leaps, it is definitely apparent that the situations he leaps into are what is out of his control. For example, why would GFTW leap Sam in just before he is about to receive electric shock therapy in "Shock Theater"? Or the many other countless situations in which Sam's life would have been in danger or being humiliated by not knowing what was going on during the leap-in.

Sam Beckett Fan 11-16-2013 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
He couldn't even remember the things he'd done in the leaps, how could he answer that question?

Exactly, you basically restated my point there. He couldn't have answered that concern because he never had to try act with knowledge that he's married.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
Are you seriously going to tell me that you aren't going to panic if you were being put in the electric chair?

You seem to have missed my point the fact that Sam panicked was not the significant factor of that moment, it was why he took until the last second to leap out rather than right after Al declared him successful. His panicking only reinforces the senseless logic that he would choose even subconsciously to linger. But perhaps a force, like God, that some believe dictates fate on a partial level wanted Jesus Ortega to leap back in the moment of his death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QLNut
Perhaps Al and Ziggy are to blame a little bit for this as well, as they were not aware of this either and always egged on the concept that GFTW was leaping Sam.

Which brings me here. To assume that the revelation of Mirror Image cancels out GTFW is a bit rash. Without an awareness of capability of control he only had a limited level of it, that is what I keep pushing. As Chris said, he never believed it. When his subconscious wasn't triggered something else had to be doing the steering.

How else could he end up in leaps he doesn't want to be in? While those which seem to relate to him (Ex. Camakazi Kid and Future Boy) he not only never questions but even feels a personal determination for them.
When he finally did take a conscious control, he had to have taken it from something else right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by QLNut
For example, why would GFTW leap Sam in just before he is about to receive electric shock therapy in "Shock Theater"?

Actually the better question is why would Sam himself choose to leap into that moment?

This leads me to want to ask both with and without awareness what is his level of control? Even if his subconscious selects a leap, does it always decide at what moment to arrive and/or who the leapee is? Would he really have chosen on any level to have leaped into females?
Is he even able to do so when he is aware of when he's choosing?
Could Sam have chosen instead to leap into that parking lot where Beth had the flat tire and beat Dirk to assisting her and thus ever meeting her in the first place (before then telling her that Al is alive)?

blue enigma 11-16-2013 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QL Nut (Post 60748)
The entire issue always was Sam's denial. If Sam indeed always controlled his own leaps, he never believed it. Perhaps Al and Ziggy are to blame a little bit for this as well, as they were not aware of this either and always egged on the concept that GFTW was leaping Sam.

Sam was absolutely in denial and still was through most of 'Mirror Image', until he leaped to Beth. Now it's possible that even then he didn't accept that he was in control. But I always interpreted that this was the moment that he understood and accepted that he had at least some semblance of control. I still feel that even though Sam was in denial about it, it didn't mean he wasn't subconsciously in control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QL Nut (Post 60748)
In "Last Dance Before An Execution," what we may be seeing is a panicked Sam who is unaware of his own power, so to speak. Out of desperation/fear/adrenaline, Sam possibly leapt himself out.

Absolutely, and a much simpler explanation than I had come up with, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QL Nut (Post 60748)
On the other hand, if we're subscribing to the theory that Sam controls his own leaps, it is definitely apparent that the situations he leaps into are what is out of his control. For example, why would GFTW leap Sam in just before he is about to receive electric shock therapy in "Shock Theater"? Or the many other countless situations in which Sam's life would have been in danger or being humiliated by not knowing what was going on during the leap-in.

This is an interesting point and I would again offer the suggestion that I made elsewhere that Sam just wasn't as good at leaping when he first started out. In any job or profession there's a learning curve. Why wouldn't that be the case with quantum leaping? In later seasons not only did Sam seem more immersed in the leaps and more involved with the people, he also figured a lot of things out on his own before Al and Ziggy provided the information. He was already getting better and growing more independent. So, along the same lines, maybe Sam's aim on the leap-ins just wasn't very good when he started out and he got better at targeting his leap-ins the longer he was doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60750)
Which brings me here. To assume that the revelation of Mirror Image cancels out GTFW is a bit rash. Without an awareness of capability of control he only had a limited level of it, that is what I keep pushing. As Chris said, he never believed it. When his subconscious wasn't triggered something else had to be doing the steering.

I don't think this is necessarily so. Sam could still be subconsciously controlling his own leaping even though he's in denial. He does it through his own belief that GTFW is in control, using that as impetus to push himself on but it's really him doing it. lol, I don't know if I'm articulating that well. In other words, Sam is doing it but he's telling himself that it's GTFW that's doing it and he has nothing to do with it. The bad situations he leaps into -- besides the real-life answer that the writers were going for a laugh or suspense or whatever -- are his lack of skill at aiming.

Sam Beckett Fan 11-17-2013 02:23 AM

Lack of skill of aiming...oh I like that. Clever.
How about leaps out though such as Last Dance...?

Lightning McQueenie 11-17-2013 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60755)
Lack of skill of aiming...oh I like that. Clever.
How about leaps out though such as Last Dance...?

If I remember correctly, Sam's mission wasn't finished until that last second though. Wasn't it when he was strapped in the chair when Al told him he had to give the confession?

Sam Beckett Fan 11-17-2013 02:25 AM

Correct Lightning McQueenie but why would he not leap the moment he gave the confession and Al declared him successful? It took him several terrifying seconds after that for him to leap out.

blue enigma 11-17-2013 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60755)
How about leaps out though such as Last Dance...?

Fear, as Lightning McQueenie and QL Nut both suggested, which paralyzed him temporarily. I had also suggested a darker interpretation earlier in the thread, that for a brief moment -- that passed before it was too late -- Sam was tempted to end his leaping with his own death.

Or, Sam may in some moments be sabotaging himself with his own denial of his control over his situation. That probably sounds weirdly contradictory, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60756)
If I remember correctly, Sam's mission wasn't finished until that last second though. Wasn't it when he was strapped in the chair when Al told him he had to give the confession?

I think even after the confession Sam doesn't leap right out. There's a delay.

Lightning McQueenie 11-17-2013 03:00 AM

Reading some of the newer conversations in the MIA thread, something struck me regarding "the rules". I believe that over time, Sam realised that he really had a free reign to do whatever he liked as long as the Project was not involved. This is why he feels he is able to act selfishly (e.g. trying to save or improve the lives of his own family) while he would refuse to help Al. He knows that if he used his situation to improve the lives of anyone at the project, they would have cause to fire that person or even shut down the project entirely. It is hypocritical, but really, the only times that he could act freely are when he is doing something to help himself from his own knowledge...

Sam Beckett Fan 11-17-2013 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma
Fear, as Lightning McQueenie and QL Nut both suggested, which paralyzed him temporarily.

Makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue enigma
I had also suggested a darker interpretation earlier in the thread, that for a brief moment -- that passed before it was too late -- Sam was tempted to end his leaping with his own death.

Honestly I missed when you mentioned this before. Gosh that's scary, I don't believe Sam suicidal. He enjoys helping others which is what Mirror Image portrays as it suggests he chose to continue that over returning home.

blue enigma 11-17-2013 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60762)
Reading some of the newer conversations in the MIA thread, something struck me regarding "the rules". I believe that over time, Sam realised that he really had a free reign to do whatever he liked as long as the Project was not involved. This is why he feels he is able to act selfishly (e.g. trying to save or improve the lives of his own family) while he would refuse to help Al. He knows that if he used his situation to improve the lives of anyone at the project, they would have cause to fire that person or even shut down the project entirely. It is hypocritical, but really, the only times that he could act freely are when he is doing something to help himself from his own knowledge...

I thought Sam was the one who made up the rules though. He even says in 'Star-Crossed' something along the lines of "well, since I'm the one who invented this I made the rules so I can change it and say it's no longer a rule". It's been a while so I don't remember the exact wording, but I believe it's when Sam and Al are outside the Rathskellar before Sam goes in to talk to Donna. Also, Al did get fired for helping Sam help himself in that leap. That was partly about Al giving Sam personal information, but I don't think the committee thought it was okay for Sam to be changing things for himself either.

Of course Sam eventually does help Al and I doubt Al got fired for it. Though it's possible that Al just wasn't there anymore because of the change in his history. I know DPB said they still met, etc. But it's still a possible outcome of Sam's leap to Beth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60763)
Honestly I missed when you mentioned this before. Gosh that's scary, I don't believe Sam suicidal. He enjoys helping others which is what Mirror Image portrays as it suggests he chose to continue that over returning home.

I agree. It's a much darker interpretation and I don't really believe that Sam is suicidal either. It's just one theory I threw out there and I think of it more as a moment of weakness after what has been an extremely harrowing, gut-wrenching leap, where he considers it for the briefest spark of a moment and immediately snaps out of it.

Sam Beckett Fan 11-17-2013 03:30 AM

Blue Enigma is right. Sam made the rule that stated no personal involvement including his own. Star Crossed directly covers this.
"Sam you are breaking your own inside trader rule."
"What?"
"Rule numero uno: the time travler shall not use his position to improve or alter his own life."
"I made up that rule?"
"Yes. And you swore everyone to a blood oath of alliance to it on a penalty of death."

(Totally love that last line, LOL Al! XD)

Lightning McQueenie 11-17-2013 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 60767)
Blue Enigma is right. Sam made the rule that stated no personal involvement including his own. Star Crossed directly covers this.
"Sam you are breaking your own inside trader rule."
"What?"
"Rule numero uno: the time travler shall not use his position to improve or alter his own life."
"I made up that rule?"
"Yes. And you swore everyone to a blood oath of alliance to it on a penalty of death."

(Totally love that last line, LOL Al! XD)

Yes that is true, and Al also refuses to give him information in A Tale of Two Sweeties about which horse would win the race for the same reason. But in Sam's mind, Sam is the boss, he can act how he likes. But unfortunately he is not in a position where he can exercise his influence to the rest of the project, so they are still forced to follow the original rules. And yes, Al was fired, but that was because of him feeding Sam information and doing it deceitfully.

blue enigma 11-17-2013 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60768)
But in Sam's mind, Sam is the boss, he can act how he likes. But unfortunately he is not in a position where he can exercise his influence to the rest of the project, so they are still forced to follow the original rules.

That would be a rationalization on Sam's part and not a good one. And really, the only reason why Sam was able to change his history both times was because Al was willing to help him. If Al hadn't agreed to give Sam Donna's father's last name he would've had to think of some other way to accomplish that and I doubt he would've been able to. And of course in the Vietnam leap Al chose to lead Sam to his brother so he could save him. If he hadn't been willing to do that Tom would still have been killed. So, Sam really wasn't able to just do it on his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60768)
And yes, Al was fired, but that was because of him feeding Sam information and doing it deceitfully.

Yes, but I also don't think the committee approved of Sam tampering with his life either. I'm sure the committee was aware of the rules that were set down before Sam left -- all of the rules, including the rule about changing their own lives.


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