Old 10-29-2006, 02:29 PM   #1
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i have watched all the episodes of this show and i love it .But i am starting to thinking something.When sam leapt into someone who was married or had a girlfriend sam had no memory of donna and he had to play the part of the beloving boyfriend or husband.In 2 words have sex.
and in many cases sam falls for the person he has to be in love with like abigail or that woman from the hurricane episode.and in other cases sam ends up in the bed with them.But the thing is,,,,,that here comes the MORAL issue.The women who faLLS for sam they dont know that when they make love or just kiss their companion, their companion is someone else.And even though sam is a saint what he is doing is not so moral.Especially when GOD is the one who makes these trades or these leapes,or some angel.So sam should know from the start that he has to keep some boundaries and not getting involved so much.Imagine abigail if she found out that the man she made in love with and had his child,wasnt her hubby but someone else and not her husband as she beleived all these years,how would she feel???or any of the other women of the show.And if al or someone else tryed to explain them,that sam had to change some tragedy that happend to their lives and he didnt mean to hurt anyone ,the one thing that would come on their minds, was that they slept or kissed some total stranger that they didnt know his name and NOTHING ABOUT HIM.so abigail wouldnt she felt that she was RAPED by someone stranger?????
If you see it from the other point of vew ,is just a show so there had to be a little romance in it even if they had to skip this moral issue.
But if this had happened to any of you .OF COURSE THIS WOULD never happen.BUT IF IF IF..............how would you feel.
As i said in the beggining i love the show.But this part i think the writers of the show would have tryed to explained it much better.
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Old 10-29-2006, 02:55 PM   #2
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Sam is moral, hes just doing his job, and he never has sex with a woman he doesnt love, he loved both Abigale and Tamlyn(you're newer, but we here at Als feel it safe to assume that he DID have sex with Tamyln seeing as his condition after the foreigner song).
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Old 10-29-2006, 03:12 PM   #3
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Remember Honeymoon Express,

Sam does everything he can think of to avoid having sex with Diana McBride, which is not easy seeing that she is on her honeymoon!

I've not seen the episode in a while, so my own Swiss cheese memory is a bit sketchy on the exact details, but I'm sure I remember that in the end, when they are in bed and there seem to be no further excuses, he looks heavenward and a voice over has him asking for a sign whether or not he should go ahead, and if no sign be given, that He should at least turn a blind eye. Something along those lines.

So even though Donna is not part of the equation for Sam (especially not at this point), he is acutely aware of the moral aspect of getting intimate with a woman who doesn't know he isn't who he appears to be. There are other episodes where he alludes to avoiding intimacy too.

Yes, there are times when he lets his feelings override this concern, as with Abigail, but Sam is only human, and in each case the woman was at least a willing participant in the act - he never forced anyone.
On a point of accuracy Will was not Abigail's husband (the wedding never actually took place), and Tamlyn knew it was Sam she was sleeping with because she had seen past the aura by that stage.

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But if this had happened to any of you .OF COURSE THIS WOULD never happen.BUT IF IF IF..............how would you feel.
As for that question, leaper, you are opening up a whole different can of worms with some of the ladies here by asking how they would feel to find out they'd had sex with Sam!!!
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Old 10-29-2006, 03:49 PM   #4
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In Trilogy Part 2, Abigale pulled Sam aside and told him that, At first when they started, everything felt all wrong, but then, suddenly, as if being struck by lightning, they just fit.

I take this to mean that although she didn't know that it was not Will she was with anymore, on some subconsious level, she knew he was different and to her, everything just felt right with him.
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Old 10-29-2006, 04:01 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by leaper1
Yes, there are times when he lets his feelings override this concern, as with Abigail, but Sam is only human, and in each case the woman was at least a willing participant in the act - he never forced anyone.

On a point of accuracy Will was not Abigail's husband (the wedding never actually took place)
Just to add to this, I suspect that Abigail did at least sense Sam's presence there despite the fact that she didn't necessarily know it was him. She makes a comment that something was different which was right around the time that Sam leaped in. Would Abigail's feelings for Will have been as intense if Sam had never leaped in? Of course she'd still love Will if Sam had never gone there, but I suspect it wouldn't be anywhere near as intense. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that in some of these cases, perhaps both Sam and the women he was trying to help needed things just the way they transpired.

And regarding Diane McBride, an interesting little twist of fate was that she probably eventually realized that she did sleep with Sam when she was reminded of his name in the committee hearing... So while she had no idea at the time, maybe she realized and accepted it later. Better late than never, I guess?
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Old 10-29-2006, 07:44 PM   #6
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I really had mixed feelings about the whole Sam having sex with random people he used to love thing. I mean...it's kinda nice he got to be with them again, but he wasn't himself. He had good intensions and all that, but...I dunno...it just seems wierd to me. Though, I do understand him, holding onto his memories and past and all that. The "Catch A Falling Star" episode made me cry really bad 'cause she ended up with that other dude.

Anyways, I think that it is moral for Sam to have done that. He loved them and was only wanting to help...so...yeah.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:33 PM   #7
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My biggest complaint is the one that Bellasario created when he decided to do the Leap Back and actually have Sam married. Up until that time, it was simply a possibility. The first leap after Genesis was Star Crossed and it was left with the fact that Donna had been engaged to someone BEFORE she met Sam and it was distinctly possible that she married that man before Sam would even meet her.

Then Bellasario got all hot and bothered that Deborah Pratt was going to do Trilogy. So he made an end run around her and wrote the Leap Back episode. From that point on...the question is no longer an if (unless you take the stance that Donna is a variable and sometimes he's married to her and sometimes he's not) but rather that she is married to him and is at the project. Going forward from there, Sam most intense loves were with Tamlyn and Abigail...both AFTER the Leap Back. So for certain Sam is now committing adultery. The fact that he doesn't remember Donna can not be used as an excuse, unless you don't believe that marriage is a sacrement.

SOOOO...as to the women (5 in a total of five years of leaping and 2 of those AFTER Leap Back,) I don't think that they actually minded one bit. I agree with my fellow Helen across the pond...asking how we would feel if Sam leapt into our significant other...I'll just take the fifth on answering that and just say, I'm glad this is a fictious storyline and isn't really more then an excercise in consideration.
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Old 11-01-2006, 12:42 PM   #8
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Along the same lines wouldn't Al remind Sam that he is married.He tells him about almost everything else he has forgotten.
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Old 11-01-2006, 03:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesmer Ice
Along the same lines wouldn't Al remind Sam that he is married.He tells him about almost everything else he has forgotten.
I think there are two reasons why Al doesn't remind Sam that he is married.

Firstly, Donna told him not to - that he couldn't do what he has to do if he knew.
Secondly, linked to that, Al told Sam things that he thought it would HELP Sam to know. Al agrees that it would hamper Sam to know that he is married and has a wife waiting at home. And here I'm not talking about curtailing his romantic life, but that it would make it harder for him to do what he needs to do to help people.
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaper
i have watched all the episodes of this show and i love it .But i am starting to thinking something.When sam leapt into someone who was married or had a girlfriend sam had no memory of donna and he had to play the part of the beloving boyfriend or husband.In 2 words have sex.
and in many cases sam falls for the person he has to be in love with like abigail or that woman from the hurricane episode.and in other cases sam ends up in the bed with them.But the thing is,,,,,that here comes the MORAL issue.The women who faLLS for sam they dont know that when they make love or just kiss their companion, their companion is someone else.And even though sam is a saint what he is doing is not so moral.Especially when GOD is the one who makes these trades or these leapes,or some angel.So sam should know from the start that he has to keep some boundaries and not getting involved so much.Imagine abigail if she found out that the man she made in love with and had his child,wasnt her hubby but someone else and not her husband as she beleived all these years,how would she feel???or any of the other women of the show.And if all or someone else tryed to explain them,that sam had to change a tragedy that bappend to their lives and he didnt mean to hurt anyone ,the one thing that would come to their minds was that they slept or kissed someone stranger that they didnt know his name and NOTHING ABOUT HIM.so abigail wouldnt she felt that she was RAPED by someone stranger?????
If you see it from the other point of vew ,is just a show so there had to be a little romance in it even if they had to skip this moral issue.
But if this had happened to any of you .OF COURSE THIS WOULD never happen.BUT IF IF IF..............how would you feel.
As i said in the beggining i love the show.But this part i think the writers of the show would have try to explain much better.
The writers can't answer every question it's the mystery that keeps us interested.The focus is Sam changing right for what went wrong and saving lives is all around more important then him kissing or sleeping with someone elses lady.The show would just be weird if he didn't have love interests.He leaps into regular people and most of them have a relationship of some kind and Sam just has to play the role.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaper1
I think there are two reasons why Al doesn't remind Sam that he is married.

Firstly, Donna told him not to - that he couldn't do what he has to do if he knew.
Secondly, linked to that, Al told Sam things that he thought it would HELP Sam to know. Al agrees that it would hamper Sam to know that he is married and has a wife waiting at home. And here I'm not talking about curtailing his romantic life, but that it would make it harder for him to do what he needs to do to help people.
Maybe I'm just expanding on what Helen already said, but I think a big reason why Al and Donna agreed not to tell Sam that she exists is that Sam would be miserable if he knew that he had a wife that he couldn't see or even remember. Even if Al told him Donna exists, he probably still wouldn't remember anything about her. He knows Tina and Gooshie exist, but doesn't remember anything about them beyond what Al has told him. He would feel horribly guilty about abandoning Donna and being unable to return to her, and double guilty if he also felt attracted to a woman that he met on a leap. His bizarre life is difficult enough without adding this burden to it. So Donna is making a sacrifice, doing what little she can to make things easier for him. I guess that's just the long way of saying "it would make it harder for him to do what he needs to do."
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Old 11-03-2006, 02:24 PM   #12
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I think it is a good question. I would do the same like sam... and the same like Al. It is a hard situation for these guys. And when i know, that somebody is waiting for me -the person who i love-, and i can´t come home, i will be sad and i can´t do a good job.
And also the Quantum Leap is for Sam his "Masterpiece", and he will try his best. And he must do, what he really must to do -to come home.And than he is not morally guilty .
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Old 11-13-2006, 05:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaper1
I think there are two reasons why Al doesn't remind Sam that he is married.

Firstly, Donna told him not to - that he couldn't do what he has to do if he knew.
Secondly, linked to that, Al told Sam things that he thought it would HELP Sam to know. Al agrees that it would hamper Sam to know that he is married and has a wife waiting at home. And here I'm not talking about curtailing his romantic life, but that it would make it harder for him to do what he needs to do to help people.
I can think of another reason... Sam and Al's rules regarding Project: Quantum Leap. If Sam's brain and memory became magnafoozled, Al was under direct orders if he revealed too much. As with "The Leap Back", Al also didn't want Sam to remember he was married, as such conflicting emotional dilimas, such as this one we're discussing, might affect his leap, and he might never get home if he DIDN'T leap!
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:31 PM   #14
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Well, also, Al's probably trying to make Sam's leaping experience more...enjoyable by encouraging him to be with the girls that surround the leaps. Of course, it's Sam...and he's not all for everything Al suggests...but that's why Sam's leaping and not Al...lol
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Old 11-16-2006, 12:29 AM   #15
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Actualy, Al DISCOURAGES Sam in most cases after we learn about Donna in THE LEAP BACK. I always thought that was interesting.
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Old 11-16-2006, 01:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Actualy, Al DISCOURAGES Sam in most cases after we learn about Donna in THE LEAP BACK. I always thought that was interesting.
He didn't discourage in Leaping of the Shrew
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Old 11-16-2006, 02:28 AM   #17
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I find this discussion interesting, but I would say over all that this is not a black and white issue.

I don't think you can blame Sam for things that he didn't know. Does anyone blame Beth that she got remarried. Yes Al was still alive, but she had no way of knowing that and because she moved on. Was that moral? Sam had no way of knowing that he was married, even Donna asked Sam he thought he would have been able to act freely if he had known he was married.

I also think there is another layer to this discussion. Many times when Sam leaps he is influenced by the emotions of the people he has leaped into. Like durring the hurricane he does have a relationship with Sissy and feels very strongly for her, but I think that is because the person he leaped into felt that way. I think that is even part of the reason he is drawn to Abigale. In Abigale's case I do think Sam himself does fall for her as time goes on so that relationship is a little more compucated.

Last but not least as for Tamlyn I do feel that was all Sam and that she knew she was with Sam and not the person that Sam had leaped into. She was one of the first people that he could be himself with in a long time he was having to play any parts. I think that was built out of something deeper and real. I don't think it meant that he loved his wife any less or that his vows weren't important. He acted the best he could with the info he had.
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Old 11-17-2006, 12:18 AM   #18
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I think the number of times that Sam actually slept with anyone is limited. He's a natural "prude" as Al would say, or to put it more eloquently, he has a high standard of personal morals.

As for the issue of "is he cheating on Donna?" -- I don't recall which years the episodes with Abigail and Tamlyn take place, but what year did he get married? Say, 1980 (for argument's sake). In any leap that takes place prior to 1980, technically, he's not married... or rather, isn't married yet. And therefore can't commit adultery.

Just one way of looking at it.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:27 AM   #19
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Abigail was '66, Tamlyn was '85. There were a number of other situations in the 4th and 5th season where Sam wasn't adverse to the concept either if the kissing and other activites is pointing in a direction. He was even attracted to Alia at first.

Sam didn't meet Donna until 1982 (StarBright)...and they likely had a significant engagement. Even if he didn't get married until after Tamlyn, it is still the 1995+ Sam that is leaping and interacting with the women. Thus, the leaping Sam IS still married.

I realize that everyone has their own ideas of what a marriage actually is and to some extent, that will play a role in how you see this situation. This is my personal stance. I personally have been married for 28 years. To me, marriage is something that transcends the human plane of existance. It is spiritual in nature and is a blessed union. Thus, it transcends anything in our human activity. So, in that case, just cause Sam doesn't remember doesn't remove the activity of adultery. Add to that, Donna is asking Al to lie and thus is putting both of them in the role of passively (and sometimes actively) supporting such adultery.

Again...I understand that different people will have different opinons. I still believe it was Bellasario's 2nd biggest mistake. And he made the Donna mistake mostly cause he was fighting with his wife. Now THAT's great motivation for a TV episode...don't you think (she says sarcastically.)

P.S. And Beth remarrying doesn't have a moral right or wrong in it. She thought Al was dead and had him declared as such. That is neither moral or immoral. The fact that when Sam told her that Al was coming home she waited was based on hope, belief, and love. But having her remarry when her husband was believed dead was not an immoral act.
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Old 11-17-2006, 12:51 PM   #20
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I find the whole thing a bit tricky. Yes, technically Sam did commit adultery despite the fact that he didn't know he was married. However, do I believe he was truly morally wrong? No. Simply because it was not a deliberate decision to cheat or anything that he let unfold with the knowledge that he was married. Therefore I don't believe it's fair to truly hold him accountable for his actions. If he is never told that he's married is he supposed to hold back the rest of his life because he might be married?

In the case of Beth she was technically still married to Al when she met and began seeing her next husband. If Beth had no confirmation that Al was alive or dead, I believe under technicality she'd still be a married woman. Unlike Sam, Beth does know she is married which is where the difference comes in. I believe she'd have to have Al declared legally dead in order for her to move on, but that's just my take on the whole thing.
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:42 PM   #21
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I beleive that is exactly why Beth had him declared dead. The show never showed her doing anything except talking and being held in MIA. I doubt seriously that Beth would go any further until she knew she was unemcumbered. Thus I do not believe that she did anything immoral.

Believe me, I understand that "Sam didn't know." However, there is a concept of "sin or commission" and "sin of omission." In Sam's case, it would be a "sin of omission." As I said before, Al and Donna COULD have made sure that Sam knew. They chose not to. Their's would be a "sin of commission" because it was thought out and acted on. Would Sam have to face up to his actions someday? Who knows. That's not for me or anyone else on this plane of existance to decide. Since he is answering the call of GFTW, perhaps he will be given special consideration. I don't know. But it is a moral dilemma at this point (at least from my standpoint.)

Basically though, the best way to get out of this dilemma altogether is to figure that Donna is a variable. She is NOT always Sam's wife from Star Crossed. Sometimes she is there (like in the Leap Back) but most times (maybe all other times), she's not (therefore Al is NEVER lieing to Sam and Sam is not commiting adultery at all (not married, no adultery.)

But then, if you accept that premise, you don't have the long suffering Donna back at the project, pinning her heart away for years on end, hoping that SOMEDAY her love will return to her (before she likely becomes wrinkled and addled with alzheimer's.) But hey...that's canon. When you add in the other piece of canon (Dr. Sam Beckett NEVER returned home) then you have Donna dieing without EVER being with Sam again. Oh yes...true and undying love is SOOOOO beautiful when it ends like that!

Again...Bellasario was not putting this story in for the right reasons. He was fighting with his wife. And having Donna back at the project would taint the vision Deborah Pratt painted in Trilogy. It was almost as bad as the third black screen.

All this being said...believe it or not, I do like Donna (at least the first one.) I just think she and Sam have been given a raw deal that shouldn't have even happened.
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Old 11-17-2006, 06:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccsqueaky
I find this discussion interesting, but I would say over all that this is not a black and white issue.

I don't think you can blame Sam for things that he didn't know. Does anyone blame Beth that she got remarried. Yes Al was still alive, but she had no way of knowing that and because she moved on. Was that moral? Sam had no way of knowing that he was married, even Donna asked Sam he thought he would have been able to act freely if he had known he was married.

I also think there is another layer to this discussion. Many times when Sam leaps he is influenced by the emotions of the people he has leaped into. Like durring the hurricane he does have a relationship with Sissy and feels very strongly for her, but I think that is because the person he leaped into felt that way. I think that is even part of the reason he is drawn to Abigale. In Abigale's case I do think Sam himself does fall for her as time goes on so that relationship is a little more compucated.

Last but not least as for Tamlyn I do feel that was all Sam and that she knew she was with Sam and not the person that Sam had leaped into. She was one of the first people that he could be himself with in a long time he was having to play any parts. I think that was built out of something deeper and real. I don't think it meant that he loved his wife any less or that his vows weren't important. He acted the best he could with the info he had.
when sam leaps into someone or leapt into someone ,he didnt know who he was or what he was there to do.Unless al letted him on with all the info he needed to know.And when sam sees that the man he took over his body have a girlfriend or a wife then what ?automatically he starts have feelings for her so he could leave her pragneaunt like abigail?Sam is a saint like i said before but still he is a human beeing and like all human beeings sam has his weaknesses too.Ok he doesnt remember donna and so he commits audaltery.But when he knows that abigail or sissy are beeing involved with someone else and that the other leapie is in some waiting room in the future,frightend and scared beleived,that he has been kidnapped by alliens then sam could respect that and as i said in the beggining of my massage he shouldnt let him shelf getting involved so much with these women.Imagine this if will found out that sam slept with his wife,and if this guy found out that sami jo which works on ql project which he could easy found that out,she is not his daughter but sams daughter, here we are not talking betrayal for donna only, but for the will too..Anyway, i agree with ev you all said so far,but still still i think that kissing somebodys else wife is not a good thing.and especially when this woman beleives that she kisses the man she fell in love with in the first place.But its only just a show.sorry if i sound a little harsh at this discussion but this is my personal opinion how i see it as a viewer of the show
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Old 11-18-2006, 12:14 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDuck
Actualy, Al DISCOURAGES Sam in most cases after we learn about Donna in THE LEAP BACK. I always thought that was interesting.
Maybe he just started to feel guilty or something, after seeing Sam's wife...or whatever.

You never know with Al....

But that's why we love him. ^-^
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:24 PM   #24
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Again...Bellasario was not putting this story in for the right reasons. He was fighting with his wife. And having Donna back at the project would taint the vision Donna Pratt painted in Trilogy. It was almost as bad as the third black screen.
You mean that Trilogy was written before The Leap Back? Where did you get this information?


By the way, I assume you mean Deborah Pratt?
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Old 11-18-2006, 11:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimlock
You mean that Trilogy was written before The Leap Back? Where did you get this information?


By the way, I assume you mean Deborah Pratt?
Yes...if I made typo mistake on the name, I apologize.

Actually, she was working on Trilogy before the Leap Back was written. I can't recall exactly where I read about this but it is my understanding that these are the facts of how the episode was developed. Bellasario was not happy with the Trilogy concept and wrote Leap Back to put a fly into the ointment.

Perhaps some other long term fans can help me out with the sources that I KNOW I've seen. I wasn't just making this up.
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