WHY the music has been changed...

Quick reply.

Hey all--

Been away from the boards for a bit (not the least of which was going to see Scott Bakula do his benefit performance of "I Do, I Do" tonight over in Culver City, CA).

Wanted to respond about the MIA episode first. I was indeed stating that -AS FAR AS UNIVERSAL WAS CONCERNED- the song at the end of MIA wasn't crucial. I completely understand people's strong reaction to it, and I would have--were I Universal's head--tried to deal with it.

Now that being said, I've been watching Season 3...and while the lack of original music didn't bother me so much in Season 2, it's begun to really stick out for me--and it's because of something I've realized.

Sam's leaping through his own lifetime--basically the latter half of the 20th century. In every episode, therefore, the series has to make it clear when you are time-wise. And one of the -easiest- ways to do that is through music. Styles don't always change as quickly as music does, and even with every single attempt QL did to make clothes and cars and props match time-frame, one of the best ways the show made things connect was through the music being played.

The generic music in Season 3 especially is far less time-specific. It makes the leaps somehow, IMHO, sit in a void that is much harder to connect with time-wise.

So it's bothering me more this time.
 
Re: Quick reply.

and it doesn't stop there!

In my world of entertainment, Karaoke is sueing Karaoke! The manufacturers are sueing other manufacturers... and it's all related to the original copyright owners are finding TONS of loopholes.

For karaoke, it's in the SYNC rights of having the words on the screen. They say that's yet ANOTHER licensing fee. And they're getting astronomical in what they want (so I can feel Universal's pain... they've already PAID for it once! However, in my dealings with the karaoke manufacturers, every time a disc is released, they have to repay for that permission... something Universal should know... they just don't want to pony up the cash!).

The worst part is it's the fans that pay the ultimate price. They scream and yell to the owners about being unfair. The owners scream and yell to the copyright people about being unfair... the copyright people flat out DON'T care. It's all about money.

The really sad ending of this is going to be the ending of an era... people will no longer be able to enjoy their music in other forms, be it karaoke, or even dvd.

I haven't bought the season 2 or 3 sets yet... because I'm really ticked off on this. I bought season 1 of Miami Vice, and enjoyed the hell outta it. Cause the music's intact. But they did the very same thing with the season 2 dvds... so I'm not getting those until they either fix this, or I just don't own them!

Matt
 
Re: Quick reply.

Wow. Seems like a pattern. I'm not surprised about Season 2 of Miami Vice. On any DVD set, it seems like Season 1 is taken special care of, has all the original music, and even bonus features. Then, once people buy the first Season, the rest are just crapped on.
 
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From what I understand, it took nearly two years for Universal to straighten out all of the music licensing issues for the first season of Miami Vice. Now, because they don't go through the trouble of licensing music for any future seasons, they can fly through the sets in a few months.

Why I hold Universal just as responsible for this music mess as the record companies is because they bend over backwards for the first seasons of these shows. If they suck it up and give in to the record companies for first season releases, they might as well do it for every season.

I don't see Universal's argument here. Obviously, they don't want to pay again. But they do pay again on the first season releases. They can't have it both ways! Either pay for all of it or don't pay for anything! How are they going to have a legitimate argument for the music when they go against their own rationale?! How can this not be a sleazy attempt to rope fans in to buy all of these seasons? Seems pretty clear to me. Nozzles. :rolleyes
 
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Sam's leaping through his own lifetime--basically the latter half of the 20th century. In every episode, therefore, the series has to make it clear when you are time-wise. And one of the -easiest- ways to do that is through music. Styles don't always change as quickly as music does, and even with every single attempt QL did to make clothes and cars and props match time-frame, one of the best ways the show made things connect was through the music being played.
This is exactly the point that many of us have been trying to make people realize. Music helps convey a certain mood of the time period you are in, especially in a series dealing with time travel. Most of the generic music used in the QL DVDs sounds absolutely NOTHING like the time period it belongs with, which is where the big complaint lies. If Universal had at least ATTEMPTED to address the problem and not treat us like we were stupid and/or ask for our input, many of us would probably be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Have some guts and place blame where it belongs with the music industry instead of dancing around the issue, and perhaps many of us would not be complaining that much. I would bet good money that this is why we haven't seen a show like The Wonder Years on DVD yet. It focused heavily on music from the 1960s to help convey the shifting mood of that era, how our country began to lose its innocence, etc. I even just found this article at tvshowson dvd.com dated 2/20/05, concerning that show:
This issue of Entertainment Weekly quotes Fox Home Entertainment's Senior Vice President of Marketing & Communications, Mr. Steve Feldstein, as saying "We've got it on the schedule, but there are hurdles to clear prior to a firm release date."

"On the schedule" sounds pretty good to us, how about you? In all likelihood, the "hurdles" would start with all the music licensing that would have to occur in order to present the show on DVD the same way it was originally broadcast. According to the EW story, that is precisely the way the people who were behind the production of The Wonder Years wants to see these episodes brought home. Us too, and we're sure we speak for most of you as well. It will be worth waiting a little bit longer (and even paying a little bit more, like with Freaks and Geeks) to get this the way it *should* be seen.

I know there are people who don't mind that much, and more power to them. I WISH it wouldn't bother me that much, but it does. I honestly don't know how they're able to not let the removed music bother them; I'm not belittling those people, honest... it's just that to someone like myself, audio and video are completely INSEPARABLE. Removing music is like being blind in one eye or being deaf in one ear... you're not COMPLETELY blind or deaf, but your sense is greatly diminished as a result. Even if you get used to it, it's just not the same as it's "supposed" to be. (And ask my mother about that one, she's deaf in one ear! It's very frustrating because I can't even talk to her without having to constantly repeat myself.) I just wish that some people could understand this and try to see it from our perspective, that's all. It's not like the music companies give a damn. What Universal is too stupid to realize is that if they would just be patient, take the time to do it right and give us what we wanted, they would make even MORE money over a longer period of time compared to what they're making NOW! (More satisfied customers over a consistent basis results in better and more consistent sales.) But all of these big companies only think about "now, now, now," instead of thinking further ahead.

Maybe we should all start MAKING these companies care. Interpret that as you will... :evil
 
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I'm one of those who wasn't bother by the music changes too much (only MIA.) Most of the music I honestly haven't noticed the changes. With QL the acting was excellent and the music just isn't something I didn't think much about or even noticed when it went missing. Yes there are certain songs that did need to be in there but for the most part music is just a filler...not all that important. Of all the episodes of season three I've watched (all but the last 5 of them) all the important music was there. I thought they did a great job with season 3.

The thing to think about when complaining about the lack of music is if you were the owner of a business and you thought you had bought the rights to a product and then were told you need to pay more of the product ( it's a product everyone loves) in order to use it or sell it would you do it? I definitely would not!

The music companies are to blame for this...hands down. It's a matter of principle. Universal and all the other companies should not have to pay for something they already had paid for. And I can understand them not wanting to risk getting sued and then having to pay lawyers and court fees and possibly having it tied up in court for years.
 
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But the thing is, Universal DOES pay again when they release the first seasons of their shows. So where do they stand? They don't want to repay but they repay under certain conditions? They pay for the songs that they feel are absolutely imperative to keep. Fine. There's no way out of that one, so maybe I could understand. But they paid for EVERY song in Season 1. They're hypocrites. This is probably why they don't take the record companies to court. They go against their own rationale. They can't complain about something, then do it, then complain about having to do it more. I don't think they'd have a case.
 
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QLNut You said Universal was being hypocritical... Universal and all the other companies are put in a darned if you do darned if you don't situation. They try to please the fans and try to keep from going under financially. I think most people forget they are in business to make money and if they are paying tens of thousands of dollars per song (or more depending on the deal struck with ASCAP and like companies)...the cost adds up.

Yes they paid for the first season (and no I don't think they should had done that but that was their choice) but think of the cost it would be to do that for every season for multiple shows. The cost would be out of this outragious!! Like I said music for the most part is filler. I haven't noticed any key music changes in season 3. I know there are music changes but none of the original songs stuck out of the ones that are missing. I think Universal learned a lesson in that the key songs (like Runaway, etc, etc) need to be there.

I for one could never buy these DVD's if they were 100-150 dollars per season. For Example I would love to have Star Trek: The Next Generation but it's too expensive.
 
Music Issue

Yes they paid for the first season (and no I don't think they should had done that but that was their choice) but think of the cost it would be to do that for every season for multiple shows. The cost would be out of this outragious!!

Universal needs to be consistent. How are the record companies or courts going to take Universal's argument seriously when they decide to give in (to an extent, anyway)? They are a billion dollar company that can afford the costs of ALL of the music for ALL of their shows. What also needs to be taken into account here is the money they will make back from the sales of these DVDs. But most importantly, the money they will MAKE off of the DVD sales.

As with movies, I would think the money they make back will cover their initial expenses and then some. It's kind of a "takes money to make money" situation. And they sure have the money. They chose to pay for Season 1. So since they have already given in, they might as well give in for every season. Here they are complaining to the record companies about having to pay again after they paid again! I call them hypocrites because they feel like they're in a position of being screwed over, so what do they do? Screw us over!

If they never paid for all music for each first season of their shows, then I could take their side of the story seriously. Or at least I could attempt to try to have sympathy for them. Basically, they pay, THEN say to the record companies, "OK, we paid again for the first season but we're not paying for any more because we shouldn't have to!" Well, uh, then why did they pay again in the first place? I'm guessing to rope the fans in. Now do you think that is to please the fans? Or is it to ensure that their DVD releases sell? I think it's to make sure their DVDs sell.

You say they are trying to please the fans. I disagree. If they tried to please the fans, they would have at least added bonus material to seasons 2 & 3. They don't need the record companies' consent for that. Deborah Pratt even suggested some bonus material to Universal and they refused! Are they trying to be consistent with the lack of bonus features for all of their other shows? I don't think it would matter because they're already inconsistent by including all music for the first seasons and not the rest.

No, I think the extent of Universal trying to please the fans is their "momentum" rationale. They want to keep up the pace releasing the sets in 6 month intervals so that fans won't have to wait too long. Either they're incredibly stupid or they're purposely overlooking the fact that giving fans butchered sets every 6 months will ultimately piss us off even more! Well, I don't think it's that they're stupid. All they have to do is cough up the cash again and pay, then sell each set for more money (which most of us have no problem paying more money for complete sets).

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is: Universal will, in fact, make money off of this when all is said and done. Call me ignorant, na?ve or oblivious, but this is how I see the situation. And by the way, I'm not flaming at you, Martha, it's just the whole situation.
 
Music Issue

I for one could never buy these DVD's if they were 100-150 dollars per season. For Example I would love to have Star Trek: The Next Generation but it's too expensive.

If these sets had cost $100-150 per episode, there are always alternatives to avoid the high costs. Fans could always look for used sets online or at video stores, or bid on eBay if they want brand new sets. And that's assuming that the sets would cost that much in the first place. Season 1 was complete and only cost $60. Actually, the only DVD sets that I know of that are the most expensive are Season 1 of I Love Lucy and of course the Star Trek sets.
 
Re: Music Issue

Well 60 dollars is still a stretch for me for every season . Had Amazon not had the prebuy price low I probably wouldn't have been able to get season 1.

As for fans buying used...it's still a loss for the company they would have fewer sales and it would be only the die hard fans (which I am...but don't have the cash) that have lots of money. Their goal is to get the most money at the lowest cost for them and hey who can blame them. I'd do them same of I had a business.

I'll take missing music over having to pay $60.00+ for each season any day.
 
Re: Music Issue

I understand you POV but I see things differently (obviously :lol ) While I have not been a business owner I have seen the business end of things. There's a lot of cost going into making these DVD's and no I'm not even talking the cost of the actual DVD itself. There's people to pay like the designer of the DVD cases, etc. They probably don't make as much as you think. You got to remember they sell to the stores for half of what we pay for them. And all the cost comes out of that half. Do they make a profit...of course. If they didn't they wouldn't be selling them. I expect them to make a profit there a business.

I'm not sure if they used season 1 to "reel in" the fans. Most fans will buy no matter what (providing the cost is right...even then most will probably still buy.)

Don't worry about it I didn't see it that way. ;) :wavey

And by the way, I'm not flaming at you, Martha, it's just the whole situation.
 
Re: Music Issue

If the price of the seasons of Quantum Leap would have been increased by more than $10 or $15 by getting the rights to the songs, then the RIAA are just being malicious money pigs.

I really thing this is the RIAA's way of meting out punishment for the perceived losses from online music trading.
 
Re: "Video"

it's not DUE to the online trading... it's due to the loopholes that they find themselves with. They have researched the law so extensively that they've found the loophole that allows them to charge again for the dvds.

The current copyright allows only for the initial recording of the shows, reruns, and VHS... that's IT. In order to repress the show on dvd or DAT or whatever, then a new license must be bought. That is something I identify with.

To me, when they bought and paid for the rights to the music initially (and back then it was MUCH cheaper btw), then that gives them the right to redo it on another FORMAT.

The copyright laws that are being battled nowadays is ALL about the FORMAT shifting. From master recording to VHS was allowed... to other formats, it IS NOT.

I'm told that the karaoke discs I bought and paid for can NOT be CONVERTED to computer... that requires another license PER TRACK PER DISC (and that's IF I get the permission, which has been categorically denied, with the exception of ONE manufacturer).

Universal has been told what the license issues are, and are obeying categorically. The one thing I wish they would do is put a disclaimer on the show, on the dvds packaging stating that due to the original music copyrights, they had to change the music, so these shows would be a bit different from the original airing.

BUT to do this would be suicide... few would buy the dvds because they'd openly acknowledge that they're DIFFERENT than originally aired, and those that do buy them wouldn't be happy with the product!
 
Re: "Video"

I still think it is just a lot of crap.. so they found a loophole, and will use it to basically screw over all the fans of the shows, all for a money grab that they don't get.

While I think the studios need to give in some on the subject, they never will, unless the RIAA, WGA, SAG, etc. all get together, and WORK together on the more broad DVD issues of studios vs. residuals/licenses/royalties.

It would have been better in the long run for the RIAA to allow the songs to be used for older shows, and fight to get a deal hammered out for up and coming shows instead of this. Give a little so fans will still get the shows as they remembered, while still addressing the issue.. All this posturing between the studios and the RIAA is leaving us with is permanently screwed up shows on DVD, while alienating the fans.

Now if they later hammer out a deal that doesn't make DVDs too expensive, all the old shows will still be totally borked by this current fight. The studios still win. They will not give in to the single entities, and will continue to reap in most of the bucks as long as the fight is for the quick instant buck instead of a logical, real desire to make it fair for all in the future.

This is not just an RIAA problem, it is an industry problem.
 
rights to music on dvd

UnseenPresence> I realise you may not know this, but I wondered... If the music business claims that dvd is nog legally video, then how does that apply to laser disks? This format existed at the time of the first video negotiations, and should therefore have been part of the deal. However, if laser disk is considered video then it would be hard to claim that dvd is not, since it is basically the same technology. I do not know if QL was ever released on laser disk and if the music was altered there, but if it was released and the music left unaltered, then the studio might have a case... Any comments?
 
It's not really an issue of them being on DVD. It's basically just an issue of expense. The more pre-existing music is used in a television show or a motion picture the more expensive it can be. This is why so many shows like the Simpsons and Futurama do sound-a-likes (ie knock off versions that are legally different but sound eerily similar to the original) material. Essentially if they do use a particular song they pay for it initially and every time it is used again. And not just to the record company, to the performer, the writer, and essentially anyone involved. Many writers of television show actually getting bigger royalty checks for a song they wrote when a show reairs than the writing of the actual episode. This occasionally affects a show in syndication as well, certain episodes some time never reair. In short anytime they want to distribute that show again be it a reairing, syndication, or video release another expense is involved. And being that this is a DVD release customers and fans are actually purchasing the music on those dvds. It's not a piracy issue or anything, it's just if Universal releases the sets with all original content they are in fact selling the artists music and that artist and those involved with that song need to be compensated.

It really is unfortunate that Universal didn't just wait it out until they had the rights to distribute the music again in another format. More than likely they are nervous about making the money back it would take to license all these songs again. Such as with "Freaks and Geeks" as another user mentioned earlier in this thread. The reason those DVDs got released is because a there was enough fans out there petitioning along with the creator of the show working so hard that they were actually released through a third party dvd company. The reason they were so expensive is they didn't really have much backing from the studio involved with making the original episodes. So this smaller dvd company had to make sure that even if all the fans on the petition purchased their own copies that the company would still make a profit after licensing all that music. This is the same reason "Wonder Years" still hasn't seen a DVD release, all that music is expensive and they need to make sure enough people buy the dvd.

ps. forgive my horrible spelling
 
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I wonder if these STUPID music companies will make the same argument when Blu-Ray discs arrive? (discs capable of storing ~10 times as much data & 1600 x 1080 video)

Circa the year 2010: "Blu-Ray discs are not the same as DVD. You have to give us more money... again."

.

The more I hear about music companies, the less I like them. It was just a short while ago that they wre punished by the U.S. Court System for forming a "price cartel" and "anti-competitive practices". In other words, the companies worked together to make sure CDs were inflated by +$5.00 between 1990 and 2000.

Now this crap where they're demanding more money from their pals in the TV industry. Greedy bastards.

troy
 
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I could be wrong but doesn't Universal own the entire back catalogue to Ray Charles which I think they bought when they started to make "RAY"...so if this is true surely they could have used Georgia On My Mind in the M.I.A. episode. I could be wrong. I don't know.
 
Craig said:
I could be wrong but doesn't Universal own the entire back catalogue to Ray Charles which I think they bought when they started to make "RAY"...so if this is true surely they could have used Georgia On My Mind in the M.I.A. episode. I could be wrong. I don't know.

I'm sure that the music used in "Ray" was with the explicit consent of the Ray Charles estate, something that they didn't get for "Georgia on My Mind" in "MIA".

Kat
 
I'm putting the following message in bold, because it's important.
McDuck said:
Without Napster and Kazaa and all the others, the music industry wouldn't feel the need to BE so greedy. Not saying they're right, mind, but their greediness really started coming out after the whole Napster thing.
Your statement is not true.

According to the U.S. Judicial System, the record companies formed a cartel in 1990, and they were guilty of price-fixing (which is why they had to mail ~$20 refunds to all their customers). ----- So their greed dates back to 1990... loooong before Napster or even the Web existed... the record companies were already breaking the law with illegal price-inflating cartels.

You guys can sit here and make excuses, but the record companies were *already guilty of greed* looooong ago... back in 1990... they were inflating CD prices via price-fixing.

I have no objections to companies getting their money, but I DO object to them *deliberately* inflating CD prices via illegal cartels.

It's immoral.
It's against the law.
It's poor treatment of customers.

.
.
.

Right now, record companies are saying "video" does not equal "dvd", therefore the tv studios have to pay another fee. ----- Don't be surprised if record companies object to Digital TV broadcasts of old shows. After all, the original contracts were for *analog* television, not digital. They'll probably want more money.

troy
 
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I have to say, DVD is a video format. Why should the record companies get more money just because of what they put the video on? Seriously, what difference does it make that the video is on a small disc rather than a rectangular cassette. Video is Video. Period.
 
I think everyone agrees with that except the blasted record companies. :\ Personally, I'm very happy about their slump in sales (whether they're still in one or not); they've complained that illegal downloading has taken away significant profits from them a few years ago, but I have no sympathy for them. The truth of the matter is, CDs are simply not as hot a commodity as they were a few years ago. DVDs are seen as a better investment now than CDs and you have more people buying other devices such as digital cameras, iPods, etc.

In my opinion, a lot of current music out right now isn't very good anyway (no, I won't name names because there will be fans of whoever I'll say), especially when a lot of artists either can't sing, don't write their own songs, or throw together half-hearted rhymes over a beat to make a club hit. I like many different types of music, but I am primarily a rock fan and even a lot of bands are bland, have no guitar solos and lack inspiration. The corporate influence is very obvious to me on a lot of music I've heard in recent years as well... Somehow, it seems that the less effort is put into music, the more successful the artist/song becomes. Go figure. Too much style over substance and that's a lot of the reason why I barely ever even buy albums anymore myself.

Anyway, getting off of my rant, I do envy those Quantum Leap fans who can overlook the music changes and the newer fans who don't even know what they're missing. Me? I've seen these episodes dozens of times over the past 15 years and when I watch the DVDs, when a song is replaced, I notice it right away like an arrow to a target. It's a shame, but I try to overlook the changes as much as possible and/or not watch the episodes that are the most harshly affected. I've told my girlfriend about the whole issue and have shown her a few episodes over the past few months, and even she seems to notice when a song isn't there! If they weren't replaced with such God-awful instrumental muzak, maybe the mood wouldn't be completely killed, but I digress...