But Sam didn't know that he had a chance to shorten Al's years in VN - he didn't even know Al was one of the POW's. Given a choice of saving someone's life and preventing someone's imprisonment, I think I would agree with Al: what the h***, I get repatriated in 4 years." Al certainly knew who the POW"s were and he wasn't saying, "Save me, SAM!"

Scott was in Matlock?

He was. He played Jed Palmer in the two part episode "Power Brokers" that aired in 1987. I've got some screencaps from it here: http://sbscreencaps.com/matlock.htm.

Scott's done his fair share of guest appearances. I've put together a listing of his appearances for my site - http://sbscreencaps.com/selected_filmography.htm.

Exactly. Did you not notice Snish how heartbroken Sam looked when he saw the photograph that won the pulitzer? Had he known Al was out there he would have given anything to free his best buddy. Possibly even if it meant leaving Tom's fate untouched.

Although I must admit that Sam was a tad on the selfish side to not also think of those poor starving people as well as Tom. He has a big heart and usually thinks of everyone so that struck me as a little out of Sam's charactor even though it was about someone in his family. I felt the same way abut MIA that's why I was glad in Mirror Image when he realized that he could have at least tried. Not that he didn't but he could have tried more.

It would have been a truly terrible choice for Sam if Al had told him that he was one of the POWs. So Al spared him that choice--but he also let Sam know the results of his actions at the end. So you could say Al isn't completely selfless either. I said, "It does seem unfair," but you know no one said life is fair.

I really prefer Sam as something less than perfect. If he were too perfect, he would be a cardboard saint or a superhero, not an interesting, believeable character. They don't let his Mr. Good Guy image slip too often, but it makes for great drama when they do--even if I complain about it because my beloved Al gets hurt.

I'm with you there, 100%. Sam is a much more attractive character as a 'flawed hero', as well as being more believeable. Nobody is perfect, and most people would find it hard to think objectively and live up to their normal standards when a family member is in peril. It is perfectly natural and understandable for him to be somewhat 'blinkered' at these times.
And at the end of the day, that is exactly how Al was in MIA when he saw a chance to save his marriage - all thoughts of Sam's 'real mission' went out the window. Had he thought more rationally and trusted Sam, then maybe Sam would have tried to complete both missions, like he did in Star Crossed. I don't blame Al at all for not doing that, I'm saying it's understandable.

I never said anything about Al being self-less. I was speaking hypotheically about Sam. What does this have to do with the chunk of my post that you quoted? Although it is veru nicely said and I agree.

I suppose you are right Helen, I have to agree with this.

Yeah and he also culd have done the same in Vietnam but like you said its understandable, and again how did this convo turn it's focus on Al when I was referring to Sam?

I didn't mean you specifically. That was a general "you."

OK, maybe not a whole lot. Except that Al would be aware of Sam's feelings that you described, and Al acted accordingly.

I think it's natural to talk about the motives and feelings of one character or the other, or both, especially when they have been in similar positions and you can compare them.

Ok I see what you were getting at now. Yeah Al probably spared Sam's feelings of course but what I meant was that hypothetically had Sam known that Al was out there(whether or not Al himself was the source) being that he has such a big heart he probably would have been willing to give up Tom for Al although like Star-Crossed there is a small chance he may have been able to do both. Just judging from how heartbroken he was when he saw the photograph.

Personally, I think if Sam knew one of the POW's was Al he may have done his best to both free the POW's and save Tom's life but, if push came to shove, I think he would have made the decision to save his brother's life. He had the knowledge that whether or not the POW's were freed then, Al would end up being liberated. I believe his driving need to change his brother's history would have taken precedence.

When he sees the photo and sees that one of the POW's was Al, it's on top of the guilt he's already feeling over Maggie's death. In hindsight he realizes that not only did he lose the opportunity to cut short his friends time as a POW but he's also traded one life for another. Perhaps if given all that information - in order to save Tom another life must be sacrificed and Al won't be freed early - he might have considered not going the course he did but I still think the familial bond would win out. It's always seemed to me that Tom's death was a driving force and major event in Sam's life (something I've explored in my fiction) and something that haunted him. Given the opportunity to change it, I don't think he'd pass it up.

That makes perfect sense Julia. I don't think it has as much to do with family winning over friends as it does who's fate is worse. I always thought that Sam does see Al as family. Or at least Al thinks of Sam as family especially consitering that he has no other. So if Sam had to make a choice I would think it would be more a clash of the fates than family vs. friends. Although it costed Al three years of freedom, he gets through it alive eaither way whereas Tom can not servive without Sam's help.

That is how I understand where you are coming from opting that Sam would save Tom over Al if required to make a choice.

thanks for the link, Julia!!!! :hurray:

You're welcome.

OK - Watched this ep for the last for the first time last night and I thought it was great fun, probably assisted by the fact It was Sunday night (probably still is where you guys are) and I'd had a couple of beers.

Revenge is mine..... LOVED IT
Donna.........Blah!!!!
Sam with more of Als brain........PERFECT!!!
Al's with more of Sam's brain........boring!!!
Tina.........what a ditz!
Gooshie..........what a sweety
Ziggy.........hmmmm not sure.

Read some of the comments above about Donna saying "I don' care" when the comment was made about how many times al had saved sams life. I think she really did care, she just didn't want to care because it meant she'd lose sam again, but of course she knew she did care and she had to let him go... make sense? Hope so.

I understood Bexter and I agree with you completely. As I tried to say in my first post here(but Julia who is the main one that thought Donna was being selfish; did not seem to agree) was that her hubby who has been gone from her life for four years has finally returned to her but she barely got to welcome him home and he has to leave again. So it was just that she was upset about finally having her hubby back after four years of missing him and wondering if he will make it home only to have him turn around and leave again; not that she did not care about Al's life.

Yes if she was purely selfish and didn't care about Al at all, she'd probably have put up more of a fight to keep him there.

Exactly, she would have even demanded him to leave Al to his death and stay with her.

:roflmao:

Oh, poor Tina. She had such a short time to make an impression, and this is what we got--an awful squeaky-voiced bimbo. I've always felt that there has to be more to her than this, because why would Al stay with her for 4 years?

I agree, I don't think Donna meant that literally. I always imagine her thinking, "We'll find some other way to save Al--just don't leave me again!"

This is why I like to think of her the way the novels have her, as the second highest IQ in the project. Just because she's a ditz does not mean she can't be smart.

Yeah exactly if she were truely being selfish she would have said something like
"Screw Al dammit! I have been waiting for you and worrying for four years I am not going to lose you again!"

Great sex maybe? :lol :lol :lol

Bexter, you think like a man. :lol I mean that in a good way. :D

Considering Al's roving eye, it would have to be spectacular sex. I mean, you can always find someone else for that.

I don't see a need to make Tina a genius though. Everyone at the project doesn't need to be a genius. One or two per project should be enough. Her title in "A Leap for Lisa" is "pulse communications technician"--basically, a receptionist ("pulse communications" means telephone, more or less) or some kind of low-level technician.

So I think she has something else Al needs, some aspect of her personality.

ok... so about Donna and her issue with Sam leaving her again... Its very sweet that she wants to be a little "selfish" but not in a bad way. I mean true she did just get Sam back and then has to turn around and have her whole world crash again.. Here is my Theory for this... lol Go with me on this people.. lol ok soooo Sam said himself (just as he was getting prepared to leap into al to save him) That when the lightning strike simo-leaped himself and Al that some of their Neurons and mason's had obviously merged... "part of me is Al". He said, because of this he now knew how to hit the bulls eye... "I can leap into Al"... Ok so that being said we all know that Sam And Al are Connected forever..... Sam Told Gooshie to "Set the Accelerator Chamber for June 15th 1945 (i believe that was the date) which means he can not only leap into Al but he can also Dial in the exact year... ok soooo that being said, Since Sam and Donna or (project quantum Leap) is set in 1999, then in Reality When sam was Talking to Donna and was about to get into the accelerator Chamber, Al had been Dead for 50 years.!! Sam could have waited 20 years and then just told Gooshie to set the Chamber for june 15 1945 and Leaped into Al and saved him then!!!!!! He would have had time to spend with Donna and Save Al.. The only Difference would be that when Al saw all again Sam would have aged a bit.. lol OR.... Sam Could have Leaped into Al right after THE VERY FIRST LEAP (Genisis) and figured out for himself why the retrieval program wasnt working... Then just all would have been fine... lol i know, im just having fun with this but if you can follow me then you'll know these theories could have worked..


Brad

I take your point, but the flaw with this theory (other than ruining a dramatic moment in an episode that only had minutes left to run of course! :P )
is that Sam could not be sure the Accelerator would still work after 20 years, or 2, or 2 months - funding could be cut, any number of reasons could stop it from being usable. Besides, could you enjoy relaxing with your partner knowing you'd left your best friend to die? Sam isn't like that.
Most people wouldn't be, I believe, able to relax and say "Oh I can go and save him anytime, there's no urgency."

lol yeah.. i understand. However, whats done is done and the fact is that in 1999 History had already been writen... Sam could have stayed longer and tried to correct the problem with retrieval... He also could have simply leaped into Al in the year 1998 or 1999. Hey i wonder if Al could get into the accelerator chamber and Leap back into Sam (Switch places again)?? Anyways, lol i know there isnt enough time on the show to do all this but its still kinda fun to think about the possibilities. :) Or maybe im just wishin Don would read some of these and Bring the show back!! lol So much history had happened since "Mirror Image". Could you imagine Sam Leaping into a fire fighter just before 911 and trying to stop it from happening but finding out that he is actually there to help as many people as he could to get out of the building or something.. Maybe it could be kind of like the lee harvey ozwald episode.. He could leap into many different people through out the story.. Maybe he was one of the fire fighters that held the American Flag up thats so famous in that picture.. A story like this would be very moving...


Brad

I congradulate you for very clever thinking; but sorry this is not accurate. Remember how in Boogiem*n God rewound the leap when he saw Sam in danger and the task destroyed? Well I have a mind to believe(well after someone else suggested it first, Snish seems to come to memory for some reason) that if HE was willing to rewind the leap for Sam than why not Al as well. I think Al would have also been sent back to the beginning of the leap for a due over. I don't believe HE would let Al die like he didn't let Sam.