B**giemen episode and Season 2.

Sorry, but i don't buy it. You have to remember that Al is NOT THERE (he is in the future). I can buy the fact that there might be a devil controlling the time and place that Sam had leapt into, but the far and distant future? Uhhmmm..no!

With the power that The Devil Al had in that Episode, Why is it hard to believe that he could make Al forget? Remember, in the Ep, Devil Al could see, hear, and talk to Hologram Al. So why couldn't he reset his memory, wanting only Sam to Remember.
 
Grimlock said:
Sorry, but i don't buy it. You have to remember that Al is NOT THERE (he is in the future). I can buy the fact that there might be a devil controlling the time and place that Sam had leapt into, but the far and distant future? Uhhmmm..no!

Well, this is a tough one... It appears we can't have it both ways.

Scenario 1: It was all a dream and Sam had a psychic premonition, thereby resulting in his d?j? vu with Tully's death.

Scenario 2: GFTW intervened with the leap and saved Sam because the Devil was too powerful to defeat. Sam ends up back at the beginning of the leap with knowledge of everything that occurred, yet Al appears and has no recollection. (But note that he is also wearing the SAME clothes as he did in the previous history/dream, which suggests further that it actually happened.) This would also be a contradiction with "Deliver Us From Evil" because when that leap was reset, BOTH Sam and Al had a recollection of the previous history.

Obviously, the episode is leading the audience to believe that it was all a dream. So if this is the case, Sam had to have had a psychic premonition. No way around that. But I just don't buy that scenario. Sam was many things: A genius, a physicist, a doctor, etc., but NOT a psychic.

So, I think something more was going on. Al had no recollection of the leap because it was erased in the past, and therefore he had no corresponding memory of it in the future. (Time changes instantaneously in the present when something is changed in the past [think "Honeymoon Express" and "A Leap For Lisa"].) Since GFTW intervened, He/It could have allowed Sam to remember this alternate history in the same way that only he was able to remember Stawpah in "Mirror Image." The reason being because GFTW wanted to make sure Sam was able to complete his mission without letting him rely on Al.

I think the reason why both Sam and Al were able to remember the alternate history in "Deliver Us From Evil" was because GFTW didn't intervene in that situation, and Sam and Al remembered the history just as they usually do for every leap. It's a bit of a stretch, but the best I can come up with for now...

Grimlock said:
My version would be that the mind of Sam and the person he leapt into became mixed with eachother (because of the fall) and Sam had HIS dream and fantasies.

Two problems with this theory: The mind-merging concept didn't really begin to occur until "Shock Theater." And as I've said a few times on the board, I think the shock treatment Sam received in that episode initiated all of the subsequent mind-merges.

Secondly (and more importantly), how could Joshua possibly have a memory of Tully's death if he had leaped out before it actually happened? If Sam's mind was indeed merged, yes, he could know who Tully was, but he wouldn't be able to know that he was about to die on the ladder.

Grimlock said:
Besides, it's never explained why he only had to save Tulley the second time around (if you presume that the whole episode was about what originally DID happen in the original history........seeing how Sam failed the first time round). Otherwise, Al would have also mentioned the other deaths.

But that's just it: This time, since God reset the leap, the Devil was no longer there, and it would be a history without the deaths that the Devil kept causing. The way I see it, the first original history only had Tully's death; the second rewritten history had the appearance of the Devil, wreaking havoc because of his anger toward Sam (who only decided to show up as a result of Sam's leaping in time); the third and final history was back to the original one, only with Sam there. And as we all know, history can be changed an infinite number of times, whether it's by Sam or GFTW.

Now the only issue here is...the Devil originally caused Tully's death (he was in the form of a goat, who yanked the ladder that killed Tully). But now without the Devil's interference, Tully slipped and was about to die, yet with no goat there. I suppose it was just a coincidence that Tully would have slipped and died anyway without the Devil's interference. Perhaps the Devil decided that he wanted to do it personally by appearing as the goat, just to toy with Sam and have everyone believe he was nuts when no one else saw the goat ("It was a pattern that seemed to add up, but it didn't").
 
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Many thanks for that summary. I agree with all your thoughts - particularly this bit:

QL Nut said:
The way I see it, the first original history only had Tully's death; the second rewritten history had the appearance of the Devil, wreaking havoc because of his anger toward Sam (who only decided to show up as a result of Sam's leaping in time); the third and final history was back to the original one, only with Sam there. And as we all know, history can be changed an infinite number of times, whether it's by Sam or GFTW.

Now the only issue here is...the Devil originally caused Tully's death (he was in the form of a goat, who yanked the ladder that killed Tully). But now without the Devil's interference, Tully slipped and was about to die, yet with no goat there. I suppose it was just a coincidence that Tully would have slipped and died anyway without the Devil's interference. Perhaps the Devil decided that he wanted to do it personally by appearing as the goat, just to toy with Sam and have everyone believe he was nuts when no one else saw the goat ("It was a pattern that seemed to add up, but it didn't").

Right, I feel alot better about that episode now! I feel I can move on with the rest of the season. I doubt there will be quite as much to debate about "Miss Deep South"!
 
SamBeckettfann said:
not really no, but you'll love it, it's harlious. Scott wears his most halrious woman's outfits in this episode.:roflmao:

:sing Quanta la gusta, la gusta, la gusta, la gusta, la gusta, la gusta!:sing

That ep is one of my favorites!

Samantha Beckett
 
I can take all of horror. But Dean Stockwell really did portray pure evil in that episode and chills my spine everytime. I think Sam dreamed the episode and the Devil in the form of Al warned him to back off and left him with the warning that he would intervene and stop him from returning home. I don't think he had the power to manifest himself in reality.

A visual treat is below!
 

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Don Quixote said:
I can take all of horror. But Dean Stockwell really did portray pure evil in that episode and chills my spine everytime. I think Sam dreamed the episode and the Devil in the form of Al warned him to back off and left him with the warning that he would intervene and stop him from returning home. I don't think he had the power to manifest himself in reality.

A visual treat is below!

Indeed, Dean did a very good (and creepy) job at being Satan, hehe. I actually screamed when i saw that end part for the first time. It takes a fair amount of creepiness to freak me out, but the whole Devil bit sure did.

Samantha Beckett
 
Don Quixote said:
I can take all of horror. But Dean Stockwell really did portray pure evil in that episode and chills my spine everytime. I think Sam dreamed the episode and the Devil in the form of Al warned him to back off and left him with the warning that he would intervene and stop him from returning home. I don't think he had the power to manifest himself in reality.

I don't know about that. Demons can certainly manifest themselves in various ways. So why would you assume the devil can't do the same? Granted he doesn't have unlimited power and will in fact one day be stripped of all power forever and punished, but he does have some power. He can't be in several places at the same time like God can, but he can certainly cause some problems wherever he does choose to show up.

A visual treat is below!

:shiver: Sure was!
 
SamBeckettfann said:
no offense, we all have our POVs Grimlock, but your's just dont make sense.

Lol, that's the same thing i was thinking about the POV you guys(and girls) all seem to have (no offence).

Mine was just a throwaway option, but you really want to believe that there is a devil involved and that this ties into the evil leaper episodes, don't you? Ah well, fine by me.

P.S. I'm not religious or anything, but to me that explanation has got "jump the shark" written all over it.
 
Grimlock said:
Mine was just a throwaway option, but you really want to believe that there is a devil involved and that this ties into the evil leaper episodes, don't you? Ah well, fine by me.

Well, I'd say the series definitely makes it clear that there is a God, so what's so hard to believe about there being a Devil as well? Many episodes deal with the concept of good and evil and the fact that they're counterparts. Al said Alia was Sam's counterpart in "Deliver Us From Evil," so it would only make sense that God──or GFTW──would have a counterpart as well.
 
in my opinion, if God is involved the devil has to be as well as Al stated in MIA

"That's if HES(points up) the only one ta work here, but you seem to be forgetting about HIM(points down)"

and what wrongs would Sam have to change without the devil causing those wrongs.


however, Boogiem*n has no connection to the evil leapers, not episode wise anyway, of course it does with the whole devil thing, in fact now that i think about it i just got a though this second.

Devil Al: to put an end to your medling, who gave you the right to go bungling around in time putting right what i made wrong!

now that i think of it, Alia may have been it, Devil Al stated that he wanted to put an end to Sams do good-ing so maybe Alia was suppose to be his attempt to do so. becasue as Sam brilliantly figured out, she was not evil Quote: "whoever is leaping you around in time is" Unquote. well the who, is the Devil obviously and he trapped her under his power to keep his promise and out an end to Sam, of course it did not work.
 
SamBeckettfann said:
in my opinion, if God is involved the devil has to be as well as Al stated in MIA

"That's if HES(points up) the only one ta work here, but you seem to be forgetting about HIM(points down)"

and what wrongs would Sam have to change without the devil causing those wrongs.


however, Boogiem*n has no connection to the evil leapers, not episode wise anyway, of course it does with the whole devil thing, in fact now that i think about it i just got a though this second.

Devil Al: to put an end to your medling, who gave you the right to go bungling around in time putting right what i made wrong!

now that i think of it, Alia may have been it, Devil Al stated that he wanted to put an end to Sams do good-ing so maybe Alia was suppose to be his attempt to do so. becasue as Sam brilliantly figured out, she was not evil Quote: "whoever is leaping you around in time is" Unquote. well the who, is the Devil obviously and he trapped her under his power to keep his promise and out an end to Sam, of course it did not work.

There will always be a balance in the world. Up, down....left, right...stop, go...Heaven, Hell...God and Satan. If there wasn't a balance, our brains would explode and the world would be in chaos. Like the Devil Al said: "Yin and Yang...Good and Bad...God..." and Sam finished "the Devil".

Samantha Beckett
 
The only problem being that strictly speaking the Devil is not a "counterpart" to God in the fullest sense of the word.

God is omnipotent, the Devil is not--he has been given some freedom but he is not all-powerful.

God is omniscient, the Devil is not--he just has a REALLY good insight into human nature and what best ways to tempt us to fall.

God is omnipresent, the Devil is not--he can not be everywhere at once.

I explain this only because it appears plain to me that in the vision of QL as it has been presented to us, the capital-G God in QL's GFTW is the Judeo-Christian God. So, even if you prefer to look at Fate, Time, or Whatever as Leaping Sam around, I believe the Devil would have to be viewed through that Judeo-Christian scope or discounted altogether if one prefers to focus on FTW.
 
SamBeckettfann said:
would you care to explain that a little more Jennie, i am afriad i did not understand?

Let me take a stab at this. In the Judeo-Christian belief, the Devil, Satan, Lucifer - whatever name you prefer - is the fallen angel. He was a creation of God, pure and innocent, but by his own choice became evil. Since he is a creation of God he can not share the same power of God, ie he is not omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.
 
jmoniz said:
Let me take a stab at this. In the Judeo-Christian belief, the Devil, Satan, Lucifer - whatever name you prefer - is the fallen angel. He was a creation of God, pure and innocent, but by his own choice became evil. Since he is a creation of God he can not share the same power of God, ie he is not omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.

Ding-ding-ding-ding! Exactly...I wasnt necessarily saying that Satan is the polar opposite of God with the same attributes, but just evil. I know better than that...I was just expanding on the good/bad, God/Devil thing.

Samantha Beckett
 
SamBeckettfann said:
oh, thank you Julia.
what is omnipotient and omipresent though?


Omnipotent--all powerful
Omniscient--all knowing
Omnipresent--everywhere

God is these things; the Devil is not. The Devil is not equal to God and is not as powerful as God.

sorry i do not know judeo-christian, becasue i am simply christian.

If you are Christian, you are under what's often captioned as the Judeo-Christian values because Christianity would not exist without the core existing faith of Judaism passed down through Moses and the prophets. As one major difference, Christians believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah that the Jews are still waiting for.

A lot of what I have learned about God and the Devil comes from both the Old and New Testaments, which is why I used "Judeo-Christian"
 
No, you're not slow, Cyd. I've read and studied a lot on these things in the adult portion of my 32 years on this earth, plus the foundational youth Sunday School classes in the childhood portion of those years.

As an aside, an interesting work on the nature of evil and its work on humanity is The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis in which the elder demon Screwtape writes letters of advice to his nephew Wormwood on the best ways to tempt and snare the human under his assignment. Another interesting work as an apologetics (reason-based explanation) on Christianity is Mere Christianity, also by C S Lewis.

But I don't want to hijack this thread into a theology lesson/discussion. ;)
 
cool, isn't C.S Lewis the author of The Cronicals of Narnia? i have not reas those books excpet the first like five chapters of the first one.

and thanks for the compliment.
 
McDuck said:
I don't know about that. Demons can certainly manifest themselves in various ways. So why would you assume the devil can't do the same? Granted he doesn't have unlimited power and will in fact one day be stripped of all power forever and punished, but he does have some power. He can't be in several places at the same time like God can, but he can certainly cause some problems wherever he does choose to show up.

I was talikng about it from the context of the episode. In the episode he claims that he put wrong what Sam ended up putting right.

But I agree that the devil could probably do as much as a god can because I see them as mirror images of themselves.
 
SamBeckettfann said:
cool, isn't C.S Lewis the author of The Cronicals of Narnia? i have not reas those books excpet the first like five chapters of the first one.

and thanks for the compliment.


Yes, C S Lewis did write the Chronicles of Narnia as well as the Space Trilogy and many other writings both fictional and non-. He's one of my favorite authors.

When I was in college I learned that the Chronicles of Narnia were an allegory and re-read them looking for all the clues. I hadn't read them since I was a kid and it was a fascinating re-discovery!

In the context of this thread I again have to highly recommend The Screwtape Letters.
 
Interesting discussion! I personally believe in the 'Leap reset' theory, rather than it all being some kind of dream. And, fortunately, no one gave away the ending of this episode to me, so it freaked me out when the twist was revealed. I'd noticed that Al was acting a little funny in that he was totally worthless at telling Sam what was going on, and in his unusual insistence that the woman was responsible (when Al usually always defends the women) but I was still shocked, and a little unnerved. Dean played the demonic role far too well; it's the wheezing laugh that really gets to me.

And I'm only bringing this up now because I had a creepy B**giem*an experience last night. I had decided to stay up late watching various creepy episodes from different shows, and had just finished watching 'A Portrait for Troian' and was ready for the infamous Halloween Episode. It was 1:13AM, and I had just pulled out the slipcase containing this episode when my phone rang. Now, I don't know anyone who'd call me that late at night, so I let the answering machine pick it up. There was a burst of static, then dead silence until my answering machine beeped as it stopped recording. But when I checked, the machine hadn't recorded anything; it insisted I had no messages. Usually, the only way not to leave something on my machine is to hang up before the machine picks up, or to hang up during the recorded message, and neither of these actions has the same effect as what happened last night. The machine should have recorded something. But... it didn't. So I glanced between the DVD in my hand and the strangely empty answering machine and, being the brave soul that I am, decided that maybe, just maybe, I didn't want to watch that particular episode after all...

I'm just glad I hadn't been watching something like The Ring at the time; I'd've probably had a heart attack or something.
 
My answering machine records dial tones and tells me I have a message when it does. This was absolutely nothing, and, according to my answering machine, it didn't happen.

*grins* I know, I know, I'm getting worked up over nothing, but it was one in the morning - and the timing was eerie.
 
LOL *hums Twilight Zone theme*...

Strange things happened after I saw Boogiem*n for the first time. The last scenes of the episode, a light bulb blew out. And as soon as the episode was over, the power went out. It freaked me out!

Haha, when I saw The Ring in theaters, i was with two of my best friends. When I got home, I called one of them of their cell and did the whole whispering "seven days" thing...needless to say I scared the hell out of him. I did the same when I saw The Grudge with my best friend. That night at like midnight I called her cell and did that gravelly croaky sound that the evil thing that kills ppl made (those who have seen it know what I am talking about). She freaked at first, but she realized it was me, cussed me out, then hung up. It was fun!

Samantha Beckett
 
Samantha Beckett said:
LOL *hums Twilight Zone theme*...

Strange things happened after I saw Boogiem*n for the first time. The last scenes of the episode, a light bulb blew out. And as soon as the episode was over, the power went out. It freaked me out!

Haha, when I saw The Ring in theaters, i was with two of my best friends. When I got home, I called one of them of their cell and did the whole whispering "seven days" thing...needless to say I scared the hell out of him. I did the same when I saw The Grudge with my best friend. That night at like midnight I called her cell and did that gravelly croaky sound that the evil thing that kills ppl made (those who have seen it know what I am talking about). She freaked at first, but she realized it was me, cussed me out, then hung up. It was fun!

Samantha Beckett

I had trouble with The Grudge, too... the movie itself didn't scare me, but I found out later that night that, when heard muffled through two walls, my mother's snoring sounds exactly like the noises that woman made. I didn't get much sleep that night.
 
Sam Beckett Fan said:
man now im left out of this fun too. :(

Cyd, I'm saying this with love....you are only out of whatever fun you choose to be out of. :hug: