Old 11-27-2006, 08:26 PM   #1
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Default Al's Memory of Both Timelines?

So, it was made clear that Sam and Al and Ziggy can remember both the orginal timeline and the one Sam creates because of the brain cell link, so then I was wonder, and my best friend as well, since Al is part of the link and can therefore remember both timelines of a leap, would he remember being dead? You know in Leap for Lisa when Sam screwed Bingo up and he got killed in the gas chamber.
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:16 AM   #2
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I would venture to say no, since he acted surprised/confused when Sam acted surprised to see him again, after St. John disappeared and Al came back. I also feel that as Sam leaps, Al's memory of the original timeline fades away, and is replaced by the new timeline. That's my personal interpretation of it, anyway.
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:55 AM   #3
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Yeah I got that Impression as well from reading the novels. Sometimes I have a few moments where I forget that some of the novel concepts are not true to the show.

I also forgot to consiter Al's confusion when he came back into the picture, thank for pointing that out Al the Observer.
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:59 AM   #4
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Hey, not a problem! We're here to help each other, right? That's what this site is all about!
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Old 11-28-2006, 05:02 PM   #5
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This is interesting to think about. Al doesn't seem to be aware that he was "gone," so what does he remember? A timeline in which... let's see... the probability of court martial never got to 100%, but high enough that they had to find evidence that he was innocent. So he was the one who took Bingo out of the WR to be questioned, coming up with the idea of examining the car.

By the end of the episode, though, Bingo has leaped into himself and stopped the whole incident from happening in the first place, so there's actually nothing for Sam to leap in and fix. Makes me wonder if anybody remembers anything after Sam leaps. Would Al ever wonder why he felt compelled to keep Chip away from Marcy on that particular Saturday night? Or does he remember everything? I like to think that Al does remember the different timelines. For one thing, after Mirror Image, I like to think he can remember how different his life was without Beth, and that he can remember and appreciate what Sam did for him.

And I wonder if Ziggy can keep records of the different timelines, or if her programming changes accordingly.
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Old 11-28-2006, 05:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snish
I like to think that Al does remember the different timelines. For one thing, after Mirror Image, I like to think he can remember how different his life was without Beth, and that he can remember and appreciate what Sam did for him.

And I wonder if Ziggy can keep records of the different timelines, or if her programming changes accordingly.
I like to think of Al remembering at least something of the changes, and I believe a parallel hybrid computer of Ziggy's capacity would certainly keep records, but of course they would be sealed 'eyes only' for security.

I think probably in Al's case, he can remember a certain amount, but probably pushes the old timeline into the recesses of his subconscious, otherwise it would be a nightmare to sort new memories from old, so the mind as a defense mechanism would tend to focus on the new stuff.

I'm not sure I'm making sense to anyone here, but I know what I mean! lol
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Old 11-28-2006, 06:01 PM   #7
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Also, it would probably be pretty traumatic to remember your own death. Poor Al; I don't think he needs anymore bad memories. So it's a good thing for Al not to remember that!
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:16 PM   #8
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My theory is that Ziggy is connected to all the parellel universes on a atomic level (is that right? I never took physics)... Has anyone seen What The #!$@ Do We Know? I think it sort of goes into how we're so connected on so many different levels . . .

Well, in short, Ziggy would definitely have to know about alternate timelines.
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:40 PM   #9
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That what the Swiss Chesse effect is I think. Sam's mind is in flux between different timeframes. Al does notice the change in Honeymoon Express too, but it may have faded from his memory afterward.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:20 AM   #10
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I don't believe in the "fading" memory theory. How Al, Ziggy and Sam can remember the previous history after it has been changed is because I see them as anomalies in a new/alternate timeline. In other words, they're simply left over products of the original timeline (or universe) of which they came from (which would be before Sam made his first leap in May of 1995). Because of the brainwave connections between the three of them, this allows Al and Ziggy to be anomalies as well, and prevents paradoxes from occurring each time Sam completes a leap (i.g. once Sam saves someone in a leap, there now becomes no reason for him to have leapt there, and each leap turns into his first).

But this leads deeper into my theory that there isn't one single, rewriteable timeline like the show suggests. I believe it's more of a parallel universe thing in which each change Sam makes branches into an alternate history. I don't believe even our main characters necessarily recognize that this is the case, and are under the impression that there is a single timeline. For example, the Sam we know would vaguely remember saving Tom in "The Leap Home Part II── Vietnam," but wouldn't have memories of growing up with him, because "our" version of Sam never did. This is where the anomaly comes into play. After Sam's leap, the new history after April 8, 1970, would have a slightly different version of Sam growing up with Tom around.

So, even post-"Mirror Image" Al, who is married to Beth with four daughters, would still have a memory of what his life was before Sam made the change. The only problem is how Al doesn't seem to remember that he was executed in "A Leap For Lisa." While Al didn't seem to be aware, Sam was aware. Perhaps Al had no memories of being dead because he actually was dead. Al would have the memory of having a 99 percent chance of becoming executed, but that would be it. (I probably have to watch "A Leap For Lisa" again because I can't remember the details well enough.)
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaper1
I think probably in Al's case, he can remember a certain amount, but probably pushes the old timeline into the recesses of his subconscious, otherwise it would be a nightmare to sort new memories from old, so the mind as a defense mechanism would tend to focus on the new stuff.

I'm not sure I'm making sense to anyone here, but I know what I mean! lol
Makes sense to me. When the leap affects his personal life, he would need to repress memories that would be disturbing or confusing. Maybe he would remember it as though it was a dream. He would be able to remember, but it would lose its emotional impact because it wouldn't feel "real" anymore.

And I wouldn't want him to remember going to the gas chamber at all. Yikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by QLNut
But this leads deeper into my theory that there isn't one single, rewriteable timeline like the show suggests. I believe it's more of a parallel universe thing in which each change Sam makes branches into an alternate history. I don't believe even our main characters necessarily recognize that this is the case, and are under the impression that there is a single timeline.
I've thought about this too, but then it bothered me because this way, Sam isn't really putting things right for people. He's just creating another parallel timeline. There's still a timeline where someone suffered, failed, died, etc. So I think that when he changes something, the other timeline ends at the point where Sam fixed it. I haven't worked this all out yet so I'm not sure it makes sense, but I think the only way Sam's work is valid is if he can wipe the "bad" timeline out of existence. It may exist only in Ziggy's databanks afterwards. That's my personal preference.
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Old 11-29-2006, 04:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaper1
I like to think of Al remembering at least something of the changes, and I believe a parallel hybrid computer of Ziggy's capacity would certainly keep records, but of course they would be sealed 'eyes only' for security.

I think probably in Al's case, he can remember a certain amount, but probably pushes the old timeline into the recesses of his subconscious, otherwise it would be a nightmare to sort new memories from old, so the mind as a defense mechanism would tend to focus on the new stuff.

I'm not sure I'm making sense to anyone here, but I know what I mean! lol
Yeah I understand and thats the one concept I rather like from the novels. it makes me think of I think Obbessions, or maybe it was Mirror's Edge where Al is thinking about a day before Sam leaped where the two men and Donna were in the accelorator room talking about weather or not it would work and the exact line I remember is
"Al was also remembering a different version of that same day, a much fuzzier version in which Donna was not present"

which mean that he remembers both time lines in this case but the original is now fuzzy because the new version is taking over.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snish
I've thought about this too, but then it bothered me because this way, Sam isn't really putting things right for people. He's just creating another parallel timeline. There's still a timeline where someone suffered, failed, died, etc. So I think that when he changes something, the other timeline ends at the point where Sam fixed it. I haven't worked this all out yet so I'm not sure it makes sense, but I think the only way Sam's work is valid is if he can wipe the "bad" timeline out of existence. It may exist only in Ziggy's databanks afterwards. That's my personal preference.
Perhaps it has a little something to do with a line Thames said in "Revenge Of the Evil Leaper": "When dealing with quanta, anything is possible." I agree with you that the old timeline ends at the point where Sam changes it. I believe it's something of a similar effect seen at the end of "Deliver Us From Evil" where the timeline becomes ripped apart and erases itself. I'd like to think it doesn't happen that violently each time Sam completes a leap, but maybe a combination of the quantum field, brainwave synching across time, and a little bit of influence from God, Fate, or Time, contributes to the memory of the old timeline still existing.

Ultimately I think there isn't a rewriteable timeline, or even necessarily a parallel timeline, but rather an entirely different timeline that wipes out the place of the original and takes over as the only one that exists. Of course this would mean that this process would repeat itself with each leap, until ultimately there would be one timeline with all of Sam's adjustments.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:31 PM   #14
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but rather an entirely different timeline that wipes out the place of the original and takes over as the only one that exists.
Yes this is what I always thought as well.
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Old 12-02-2006, 05:08 PM   #15
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"When dealing with quanta, anything is possible."
This is a simplification of the situation. Possibility can include something that is incredibly unlikely (to the point of to all practical purposes, impossibility) Additionally, there are some things that simply would defy the laws of physics (so the statement is basically incorrect.) And since things on the quantum level take place with items smaller than a Planck length, we can't see what's going on...so the upshot is, we can't say for certain what can and can't happen on the quantum level, cause we can't experience it except through mathmatical extrapolations (not that these aren't valid...but we can't observe to see if what we mathmatically determine actually happens and therefore tweak the equations.)

For example, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Princinple indicates that we can know the speed of a particle or it's location but we can't know both at the same time. Simply changing the way the way one looks at the experiment results in totally different and conflicting results. The Pauli Exclusion Principle indicates that no more than two electrons (up and down spin) can occupy the same space. There are other laws of physics as well that allow us to have some level of preditabilty in our lives. In some cases, is the difference between how things work in the macro verses the micro world.

For instance, there is the entangled particle situation where two particles, separated by time and space can affect each other, throwing the concept of causality out the window. Causality may be reality in our macro world but the same rules doen't apply at the level of quanta.

What can be said is that Quantum Mechanics leads to some very weird things from our POV. We experience life at this macro level and thus the things that happen with quanta doesn't always fit what we beleive is logical or resonable. That's okay...I figure GFTW can deal with it...even if we mere mortals can't.

P.S. As to the timelines. Theorectically, there is the mathematical possibility that all the timelines exist at all times. That is the multiple theory of reality. There is also Sir Roger Penrose's theory that these multiple realities can exist but that once the level of energy to keep the reality viable reaches an unsustainable level, that reality crashes. He believes that is why we only experience what would seem to be a single timeline.
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:38 PM   #16
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occam's razor: sometimes the most simplest things are right in front of you. see ziggy and lunar crystal's rationale. when i watched the series, i always understood it as that. remember the plank's quantum theory: light can act as waves and particles at the same time. waves are what sam's brain survives on to keep in contact with al and particles are what caused him to leap in the first place. little quanta. boy, i love physics. instead of being a pharmacy aide, maybe i should go into physics and relinquish my bachelor's in english. just kidding.
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Old 12-03-2006, 10:35 PM   #17
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Simply changing the way the way one looks at the experiment results in totally different and conflicting results.
Quote:
light can act as waves and particles at the same time. waves are what sam's brain survives on to keep in contact with al and particles are what caused him to leap in the first place.
That's what I was saying. If you look as a particle (location), you don't get the wave result...if look at speed, you get the wave result. The Weird thing is they are different and the same thing simultaneously. It just doesn't fit our idea of how things work. Quanta is simply bizarre to our way of thought.

It's sort of like looking at those optical illusions...is it one thing or the other. Our brains tend to see one or the other but not both at the same time. Quantum effects are like that.

Quote:
occam's razor: sometimes the most simplest things are right in front of you.
I tend to agree...but the problem with quantum theory is that it may be simple but it doesn't fit our idea of logic. Thus it is just simply WEIRD.
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:47 PM   #18
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The Weird thing is they are different and the same thing simultaneously. It just doesn't fit our idea of how things work. Quanta is simply bizarre to our way of thought. Our brains tend to see one or the other but not both at the same time. Quantum effects are like that. tend to agree...but the problem with quantum theory is that it may be simple but it doesn't fit our idea of logic. Thus it is just simply WEIRD.
that's probably why Sam could be in Louisiana, somewhere else in the south, and at home in Indiana in August 8 1955. One Little Heart, with Ms. Melanie & his past simultaneously. Most people, myself included, see things this way or that way. We must step aside and see what it is truly, objectively...for the whole and realize that there is more fog than clear patches. The Quantum Theory makes sense though because there are buggers called quarks. Those are a pain in butt because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_model (see mesons). Maybe this is what Sam meant when he leaped into LHO "you just can't leap isolated neurons back to me...it just won't multiply. you're losing more of me." Remember when he was mind merging a lot.

I mostly agree with Penrose. But then again, whatever you believe, is what you usually get and accept, thus creating your own parallel universe which makes us believe in alternate universes because us humans have been given free will.

loved the evil leaper. especially when sam erases everything. so cool.
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