Mirror Image Stuff

[leonni]

I am curious about one thing in Mirror Image. If Sam is in control of his leaps then would it not beg the question of whether he is control of himself entirely.

I'm refering to the Swiss-cheese effect. I was wondering why Sam never remembered Donna. I wouldn't imagine that he would have a memory of her at first as he did not change their history until he lept. He would have remembered being left at the altar and that was all. It seems to me that he only remembers what the original history was and what definate changes he has made (eg: saving Tom). Since nothing was definate with Donna he had no memory of her either way until he leaps home. After that I'd almost have to consider that Sam was willingly forgetting her to continue in his mission. Perhaps that was the consequence for him not having been supposed to change their history, that the end results were negative rather than positive (Donna being left as a widow, but worse than a widow as he hadn't died and so she couldn't grieve).

I guess the alternative for me is to difficult. Because how could BTFW expect Sam to make a decision about his permanent future (whether to return home or continue with his lifes work) without having a full memory of what home was. Did he know Donna was his wife and was waiting for him? I have to consider that he knew all along and taht the Swiss cheese effect became a cruch by which he didn't need to truly delve into it.

Unless he was given an opportunity to change time again and change the "mistake" he had made with making it possible for Donna to marry him, I find it hard to believe that as moral a man as him could leave the woman he loved greiving for him. And it is clear that he does love her or he wouldn't have risked being trapped forever to set her past right and hopefully give them a future.

Then my other thought was that if he is controlling his own leaps why does he not leap himself home between each of his leaps, therefore accomplishing both of his dreams/goals/desires.

I guess I'm just frustated with the idea of Donna. I think Donna had great potential as a character from the first episode. She was adequately portrayed in the Leap Back but never really delved deeper into. She was a great match for Sam, in intellect, vision etc. Instead Sam has a child with the whiny, irritating Abigail. :banghead

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

This kind of ties in to my thread about him controlling where hes going. And I am not sure I entirely agree here. Remember right before Al dropped the notice in the mailbox
"Oh my God! Why didn't you tell me!?"
"I couldn't."
"What!?"
"I couldnt"

And then when he's embracing Donna right before they share a passionate kiss
"How could I have forgotten you?"
"It wasn't your fault, what matters is, you remember me now."

Now I know that you were referring to after The Leap Back but you also stated that he doesn't know what he's changing and I believe these lines prove wrong. He subcontiously knows, or perhaps some stuff he may contiously know, thats not desplayed for us to know for sure. As for forgetting again after the Leap Back I believe that was God's doing as he agreed with Donna's line at the end:
"Sam couldn't do what he has to do, if he rememberd us."
After all no one can willingly forget something. And you can totally tell from his reaction to first remembering her in the lines I desplayed above that he would never want to willingly forget the love of his life no matter what it meant for his job as the wrong changer.

I guess I'm just frustated with the idea of Donna. I think Donna had great potential as a character from the first episode. She was adequately portrayed in the Leap Back but never really delved deeper into. She was a great match for Sam, in intellect, vision etc. Instead Sam has a child with the whiny, irritating Abigail.

every word of this is beautiful! :dreaming:
I couldn't agree more. I loved Donna, Abigale was a word I would get in trouble for using as Brian does not like swearing. To me she's a bad fanfic not a part of the show. Bleh. I really think they should have done mroe with Donna.

 

[JuliaM]

After all no one can willingly forget something.

That's not quite true. There are forms of psychological based amnesia, where the amnesiac unconsciously chooses not to remember events. Usually the events not remembered have had some kind of traumatic impact. Selective amnesia, a subtype of dissassociative amnesia, happens when a person can recall only small parts of events that took place in a defined period of time.

How are we to know what Sam and Donna's marriage was really like just from that little bit we see in "The Leap Back"? It could be that Sam hasn't finished regaining his memory by the time he leaps out again. It could be that it's not really a peaches and cream marriage. Maybe to him it is traumatic and he does want to block it out. Heck, the reason given for his leaping when he did was to prove his theories or risk losing funding but maybe the real, never revealed reason is that he was running away from a looney tune wife. I do find it interesting that Sam remembers so much of his past and his personal life over the run of the series but never, except in The Leap Back, does he remember Donna. In "Dreams" he even refers to the simo-leap so it's not as if the whole event is removed from his memory.

Personally I can't stand Donna (or Abigail either, for that matter). I found her to be whiny, selfish, and self-centered; not the loving wife pining away for her true love that a lot of people perceive her to be. Sure she tells Sam to go save Al, but I really don't think that's a case of generosity on her part. I see it more as a woman savvy enough to recognize if she doesn't tell him to do just that and Al dies, then Sam's probably not going to be disposed to forgiving and forgetting easily - that it's always going to hang like the Sword of Damocles over them. By sending him off she martyrs herself. If he ever does leap back she's the one who can hold it over him that he wanted to go back to leaping to save his friend and he left her alone and wasn't she such a good wife to let him do it. Sorry, Sam can defintiely do much, much better than Donna. Finding someone who's not manipulative, whiny and has a backbone would be a really good start.

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Well her attitude was justified in my opinion. think about it. Your husband leaves you for four years and then finally returns only to have to take off again. Wouldn't you do anything in your power to try to convince him to stay so you wouldn't lose him again?

 

[JuliaM]

No, I wouldn't. There's an old saying, "If you love something, set it free. If it never comes back to you it was never really yours." In Donna's shoes I'd seriously have to consider just how much love was there that my husband would need me to beg him to stay. At that point I'd quickly figure out I wasn't then and wouldn't be in the future the number one priority in his life or even anywhere close to number one.

There also shouldn't be any reason in a loving and committed relationship for either partner to manipulate the other to bend to their will and that's what Donna was doing. If guilting Sam into staying didn't work then she sent him off with the knowledge that she could use that to hold over him if/when he ever came back. It also leaves her with a certain manipulative control over Al. How easy would it be for her to throw in her face that her husband left her to save him and now he (Al) owes her. There's nothing romantic about Donna. At best she's spineless and incapable of accepting reality and, at worst, she's selfish and self-centered.

If you choose to like the character, I certainly respect that but there's nothing that's going to make me change my opinion of the character. I consider her presense in "The Leap Back" to be one of the biggest mistakes of the series - maybe worse than the whole "Sam Beckett never returned home" bit. "Star Crossed" left the whole situation ambiguous. As the viewer you could choose it to be whatever outcome you felt suited the series. As has been said before, bringing her back only served to make Sam a serial adulterer and makes the subsequent episodes that much harder to take. Given my druthers, I'd rather sit through an entire season of "Trilogies" than to sit through one episode of Donna.

 

[leonni]

Well her attitude was justified in my opinion. think about it. Your husband leaves you for four years and then finally returns only to have to take off again. Wouldn't you do anything in your power to try to convince him to stay so you wouldn't lose him again?

I agree with this. Donna stood by while her husband leaped into different lives, kissed other women etc. for over four years. Think of the devotion that would entail. I have my suspicions about that though. I believe that since his early leap included chaging her past and reuniting her with her father this would have inspired some awesome devotion to him. Though she could not imagine what life had been like without her father, I sure she could figure it out based on the ten years she was without him. To me that would just cement the bond between the two, and gaurantee that she would wait for him. So while she initially begs him not to leave her (and who wouldn't being seperated from the man they love AGAIN) the fact that she eventually turns away and tells him to go to me signifies that she understands the friendship between them and realizes that it must be done. The fact that she turns away is because of the depth of her emotion.

Had she been manipulative or such I don't think she would have endured that length of time, she would have left for someone else to manipulate.

Considering she did not exist as his wife until he leaped back into the past I don't know how she could have caused him to leap originally.

I'll write more later.

 

[JuliaM]

Donna stood by while her husband leaped into different lives, kissed other women etc. for over four years.

Bellisario may have done some darned good work with QL but this is probably the worst thing he does. Donna never felt that Sam was unfaithful to their love? Give me a break. I don't think there's any woman who would have felt more than just a little jealousy over Sam's antics if he were her husband. Let's see, he can't remember his wife, his soulmate, the love of his life at all but as soon as he sets eyes on the piano teacher he had a case of puppy love on when he was 16 he immediately remembers her and not only do those feeling resurface but the solidify and the first chance he gets he's in bed with her. I can't see any betrayal there.:rolleyes

Sorry but Bellisario had no clue how a woman would act in this situation and threw out this idealized, romanticized response.

Considering she did not exist as his wife until he leaped back into the past I don't know how she could have caused him to leap originally.

Once Sam changes that part of history it's logical to assume that there now exists a history in which, when he first leaped ,he was married to her. I'm fairly sure she didn't just pop up at the project one day after the episode "Star Crossed" and knew exactly what had happened. I'd venture to guess she probably never knew what happened. With that in mind, in the changed history Sam gets into that accelerator as a married man.

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Bellisario may have done some darned good work with QL but this is probably the worst thing he does. Donna never felt that Sam was unfaithful to their love? Give me a break. I don't think there's any woman who would have felt more than just a little jealousy over Sam's antics if he were her husband. Let's see, he can't remember his wife, his soulmate, the love of his life at all but as soon as he sets eyes on the piano teacher he had a case of puppy love on when he was 16 he immediately remembers her and not only do those feeling resurface but the solidify and the first chance he gets he's in bed with her. I can't see any betrayal there.:rolleyes

It's kind of like Scott in real life, his wife has to accept that he's an actor and being an actor requires him to play his role correctly including kissing another woman (co star). Same deal with Sam. He has to play his role so even if he remembered Donna as for example Tom Stratton he has to play his role correctly to complete a leap so memor of Donna or not he has to 'act' like Pegs husband including kissing her when he has to. That's not Sam's fault or his choosing. And yes in some cases such as Diane Mcbride and I can't pop any other off the top of my head right now he does get a little bit of feelings for the other woman, but he's only getting caught up in the task that's all. I believe (and I made a thread of this called The Donna Theory) that Sam's kissing of other women is his way of looking for Donna while of course playing his role.

Donna knows that Sam has to play his role as she states
"Sam couldn't do what he has to do if he remembered us."
Techniqually he would have to but it would be MUCH harder.
She understands Sam's job as the leaper her selfishness was only merited by the fact that after four years she gets to see him again for one measly day. That would drive me crazy too.

Look Julia I must admit you bring up some good points and I respect your opinion but I absoultely find it complete rubbish myself. I think Donna and Sam are a beautiful match and are very meant for eachother. I absolutly do NOT support the idea that Donna was a huge mistake but I DO support the fact that its your opinion and I dont want to change it but NOTHING will make me agree with it. Sorry.

 

[JuliaM]

Look Julia I must admit you bring up some good points and I respect your opinion but I absoultely find it complete rubbish myself.

As I've said, I respect your opinion and your right to have your opinion. Despite the fact that I disagree with your opinion, I would never call it rubbish as that would demonstrate no tolerance on my part for another's opinion. With that in mind, I think it's fair for me to state that I do not appreciate the fact that you have called my opinion rubbish. You said you respect it however I find that hard to believe. Please, re-think your words in the future.

It's kind of like Scott in real life, his wife has to accept that he's an actor and being an actor requires him to play his role correctly including kissing another woman (co star).

I have to disagree. This is like trying to compare apples to oranges. Scott or any other actor goes into a role know it is just that and has all the pieces of the puzzle available for his/her knowledge and it's a role played without emotional involvement. In many instances Sam is not simply playing a part to accomplish his but is involved emotionally and, in several instances, sexually. Two cases in point, Nicole in "Catch A Falling Star" and Tamlyn in "Temptation Eyes". In neither case was it necessary for him to interact in a romantic way with either women but yet he did and both culminated in a sexual relationship as well. It's impossible to rationalize every single romantic/sexual relationship that Sam has in the course of his leaping by saying that he's just playing a role. In many of the cases it's not a role at all - he's involved with person emotionally.

 

[leaper]

i totally agree on that j very good point and i think that this was the only thing on the show that bothered me a little.But is just a show and dont forget that.and the producers and writers wanted to make it as more as ecxiting as they could.Thats why we saw sam married to donna becouse that would be very interesting to watch.But if you look at it in a different way, donna wasnt the mistake in the show.The writers wanted to show that it was Sams mistake his marriage with donna.Becouse he changed something that it shouldnt be changed at the first place.beeing married to another woman.And of course donna got hurt in the end, even if sam never ment to hurt her.

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

As I've said, I respect your opinion and your right to have your opinion. Despite the fact that I disagree with your opinion, I would never call it rubbish as that would demonstrate no tolerance on my part for another's opinion. With that in mind, I think it's fair for me to state that I do not appreciate the fact that you have called my opinion rubbish. You said you respect it however I find that hard to believe. Please, re-think your words in the future.


I have to disagree. This is like trying to compare apples to oranges. Scott or any other actor goes into a role know it is just that and has all the pieces of the puzzle available for his/her knowledge and it's a role played without emotional involvement. In many instances Sam is not simply playing a part to accomplish his but is involved emotionally and, in several instances, sexually. Two cases in point, Nicole in "Catch A Falling Star" and Tamlyn in "Temptation Eyes". In neither case was it necessary for him to interact in a romantic way with either women but yet he did and both culminated in a sexual relationship as well. It's impossible to rationalize every single romantic/sexual relationship that Sam has in the course of his leaping by saying that he's just playing a role. In many of the cases it's not a role at all - he's involved with person emotionally.

We have no evidence that he had sex with Nicole and I doubt he did. And Tamyln was different eaither way she knew who Sam was. I dont know I just like Tamlyn so appealer's license hehe (I just made that up right now lol).
and by the way I was calling the idea rubbish not your opinion, sorry bad wording.

 

[JuliaM]

We have no evidence that he had sex with Nicole and I doubt he did.

There's plenty of evidence of just that in the following conversation Sam and Al have at the rehearsal the next day.

Al – I’ve seen that look before, Sam.

Sam – What look?

Al – That, last night the earth moved look.

Sam looks down sheepishly but doesn’t deny Al’s accusation

Al – You’re out of control, Sam.

Sam – In case you haven’t noticed, Al, it’s been a long time since I’ve been in control.

Al – You know what I mean. You can’t tell anyone who you are. You can’t change your personal history. You can’t….

Sam – I can’t have a life. All I do is live someone else’s life. I right their wrongs, fight there fights. Geez, I feel like I’m Don Quixote.

Al – He loved pure and chaste from afar. Well, that part was never big with me either.

Sam – I love her, Al.

Al – Oh, Sam. Does she know that?

Sam – After last night she does.

Al – She spent last night with Ray Hutton.

Sam – I may look like him but she was with me. My heart, my soul.

True the exchange does not blatantly say you/I had sex with Nicole and it's not shown on camera but there's really not much else that can be concluded from this.

and by the way I was calling the idea rubbish not your opinion, sorry bad wording.

The idea is my opinion. They are one in the same - not exclusive of each other. No matter how you're trying to excuse it, it's not acceptable to make that kind of remark regarding another person's opinion. Becaue you don't agree with something or you don't like does not mean it automatically has no merit.

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Very nice evidence and very strong indeed. Actually I now recall discussing this with Kristen once, and we kind of had an inkling that he and Nicole had done a little somethin' somehthing' based on the line
"I love her Al"
"Oh Sam, does she know that?"
"After last night she does"

and Also the strong expression on his face when he says that line. PLus he DOES love Nicole. So Definate possiblities.

I was also wanted to note something. I was writing a peice today about Donna for my Creative Writing class and as I was writing it I started to notice something. Donna is like Military wife, waiting for her husband to safely come home from war, at least in a sense. Or at least that's how I unintentionally wrote the peice. I don't know I just found it interesting and thought I would share. It kind of gave me an additional view of Donna though.