The Dark Leaper

[LadyKayoss]

Here's another question, to hopefully liven up the board a little. We know the forces of good, be it God, Time, Fate, or Whatever, are Leaping Sam around. But what do you think would happen if the forces of evil had taken Sam first? How do you think Sam would react? Would he fight it, or go along with it to try to get home? What would Al do? How would things be different? I'm curious to hear your thoughts about it.

I thought about this a lot because it sounded like a good fanfic idea. Except the more I thought about it, the more I realized it could stretch into something more like the Virtual Seasons, rather than just staying a little fanfic!

 

[laestrella]

I thought of this idea, too, especially when Alia's folks were trying to leap her at the same time at the end of Return of the Evil Leaper, with Neil Patrick Harris (Doogie/Barney). Remember the beginning/ending of it? "Are we in your leap or mine?" True, especially if you get to a woman's prison and get the living mentally crap beaten out of you. You never know.

 

[isz]

It depends - would Sam know it's "the Evil Forces" that leaping him around and choosing his assignment or not?!

 

[Bexter]

Oh interesting suggestion.

I personally think that as soon as he'd been given an assignment that didn't measure up to his moral code (or Al's) they'd have just said "Nuh - stick it" I guess it really depends on how deep they're understanding is of who is leaping them. (as isz suggested) To answer the question I am imagining myself in Sam's position, if I know that an evil force had put me in a situation to wreak havoc I'd dig my heals in straight away, but evil forces dont' reveal themselves like that in reality and fantasy, the definition of satan is "deceiver" he deceives people into thinking they are doing/living the right thing when they in fact are not.

An example of this is the eposide where he leaps into the teenage boy on holidays with his family (name of ep escapes me at present) if it was me, and I'd been told that my objective was to get her (his mum) to leave her husband and start a new life then I'd have thought, on the surface, that appears to be correct, but in fact sticking with him was the best outcome. So I'd have been deceived. Does that make sense.

I'm pretty sure that, judging by the way sam and al have been potrayed, that if they realised that they were being used for evil forces they would have rather died than cause harm to those they were leaping into.

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Wow this is an interesting thought, but I feel that the forces of evil sensed that Sam's heart was good and pure and reacted like a cat to water(*hiss, body arches and fur stands on end*).

 

[bluedana]

but evil forces dont' reveal themselves like that in reality and fantasy, the definition of satan is "deceiver" he deceives people into thinking they are doing/living the right thing when they in fact are not.

That's an excellent point, Bexter. I don't think the devil would be all moustache-twirling evil, but rather would be subtle, like the snake in the garden. I'm reminded of a Bible verse: There's a way that seems right to a man, which only leads to death. I think that's the tactic the devil (or whatever evil force) would take with someone who has innately good intentions like Sam does.

We also see that Sam isn't above making the obviously wrong choice - when it's in his own self-interest; he struggles and sometimes does the right thing (like in "Catch a Falling Star") or GTFW lets him have his way and there's a price to pay (like in Leap Home Pt II). I don't think he's necessarily GOOD all the time.

LadyKayoss: I would love to see what you'd do with this premise. FWIW, I think Sam and Al would very slowly come to the realization that they were furthering evil ends, but only after trying to convince themselves that all things have consequences,some good, some bad. Like when you're a kid and you pray for a sunny day because you've got a beach day planned, and it rains, and your mom says, well, the farmers depend on the rain for their crops? Sam and Al would probably see the bad consequence, and rationalize that fortunate for one person might necessarily mean unfortunate for someone else.

I hope you do write a fanfic based on your idea. It sounds fascinating.

 

[LadyKayoss]

It depends - would Sam know it's "the Evil Forces" that leaping him around and choosing his assignment or not?!

I'll let you decide! Either could end up with very different results.

Wow this is an interesting thought, but I feel that the forces of evil sensed that Sam's heart was good and pure and reacted like a cat to water(*hiss, body arches and fur stands on end*).

Actually, this is precisely the kind of person the forces of evil would love to corrupt. And Sam isn't good and pure; he's human, he's made selfish decisions, and with the right manipulation, he is open to this corruption. That makes him more interesting, because people that aren't believable. Or fun to torture in fanfic.

I personally think that as soon as he'd been given an assignment that didn't measure up to his moral code (or Al's) they'd have just said "Nuh - stick it" I guess it really depends on how deep they're understanding is of who is leaping them. (as isz suggested) To answer the question I am imagining myself in Sam's position, if I know that an evil force had put me in a situation to wreak havoc I'd dig my heals in straight away, but evil forces dont' reveal themselves like that in reality and fantasy, the definition of satan is "deceiver" he deceives people into thinking they are doing/living the right thing when they in fact are not.

Yes, that's the way I see it, too. I was thinking it would be subtle at first, so Sam and Al don't realize what's going on until it's too late. Such as, say, saving the life of a person who later goes on to kill innocent people.

LadyKayoss: I would love to see what you'd do with this premise. FWIW, I think Sam and Al would very slowly come to the realization that they were furthering evil ends, but only after trying to convince themselves that all things have consequences,some good, some bad.

I'd love to do it, too, but like I said, something like this couldn't be told in just one story; it'd be better as a Virtual Seasons type story.

 

[Snish]

Just wanted to throw in this thought. I can imagine that Al would sell his soul to the devil if he thought that's what it would take to keep Sam alive. Al would be the one more likely to compromise. Al is a survivor, but Sam has the greater moral strength. He's the one who would accept the cost of refusing to serve the dark side. How that would play into a story is open for interpretation. It's just an aspect of the characters that I think is interesting on this topic.

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Actually, this is precisely the kind of person the forces of evil would love to corrupt. And Sam isn't good and pure; he's human, he's made selfish decisions, and with the right manipulation, he is open to this corruption. That makes him more interesting, because people that aren't believable. Or fun to torture in fanfic.

I think he is good and pure, yes he had made some selfish decisions but he just loves his family very much and wants them to have better lives. So really its not completely selfish. He's thinking about how to make his family's lives better because he does not want to them to suffer.

I can understand that evil would totally want to currupt that though as Sam's level of good would only be that much more powerful evil. The only problem would be that Sam would never surrender to it and nothing could make him unless it meant the life of someone he loved which would mean he would be doing it for good, so really he would still be good deep down. Sam has the kind of strong goodness that just can't be changed. We know this because he is constantly wanting to help more people than he is supposed to, he does not want to surrender to the limit ziggy gives him. And a few times those intincts have worked (IE: Play Ball and Plays the Thing). He's a strong fighter.

As you say he is of course human I never meant any of this as untouchable because he's not human but he has a good heart and a love for all people; he's pure and good of heart and mind. Thats just who he is it has nothing to do with leaping. He was just born good and now the leaping is just helping him use it. His intentions are always pure even if when he makes mistakes. Sorry that you misunderstood me.

Just wanted to throw in this thought. I can imagine that Al would sell his soul to the devil if he thought that's what it would take to keep Sam alive. Al would be the one more likely to compromise. Al is a survivor, but Sam has the greater moral strength. He's the one who would accept the cost of refusing to serve the dark side. How that would play into a story is open for interpretation. It's just an aspect of the characters that I think is interesting on this topic.

Wow this is a really interesting thought, really creepy but really interesting. Perhaps you should try to write it.

 

[JuliaM]

I think he is good and pure, yes he had made some selfish decisions but he just loves his family very much and wants them to have better lives. So really its not completely selfish. He's thinking about how to make his family's lives better because he does not want to them to suffer.

I have to agree with LadyKayoss in that Sam is not good and pure. He is human. His selfish decisions aren't just to help his family because he loves them and doesn't want them to suffer. It's also to improve his own life.

The height of his selfishness comes in "Star Crossed". He didn't reconcile Donna with her father just because it was a good thing to do. He did it to change his own past so that she would marry him. And what did that really gain? Donna's left waiting at the project for a husband who'll never come home. That doesn't strike me as a selfless act at all.

The only problem would be that Sam would never surrender to it and nothing could make him unless it meant the life of someone he loved which would mean he would be doing it for good, so really he would still be good deep down.

Again, this scenario that you're describing only highlights that Sam is not good and pure. This just becomes a case of the end justifying the means. Just because the outcome of the act may benefit someone Sam loves, ultimatey, if he is serving the forces of evil knowingly, no matter what the reason is, it is an evil act.

LadyKayoss, this is a really intriguing idea. It's something I'd be curious to explore and you've got my Plot Bunnies plotting (which generally means I'm going to have some nights with little sleep. )

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

I have to agree with LadyKayoss in that Sam is not good and pure. He is human. His selfish decisions are just to help his family because he loves them and doesn't want them to suffer. It's also to improve his own life.

Ok how do any of his attempts to save his family have anything to do with helping himself? What did he have to gain from extending his father's life, restoring Tom's and bettering Katie's? I think his intentions are always good and pure, which is what I meant all a long I never meant he was not human of course he is human. I am only referring to his intentions.

The height of his selfishness comes in "Star Crossed". He didn't reconcile Donna with her father just because it was a good thing to do. He did it to change his own past so that she would marry him. And what did that really gain? Donna's left waiting at the project for a husband who'll never come home. That doesn't strike me as a selfless act at all.

Ok I will partially give you this one. He did just want Donna to marry him but he also tell her in the car that he does not want her to miss her chance for true love and a good life with someone that loves her when it came to make up for his love giving him up. Which had to be worded this way to pretend he is speaking for Dr. Bryant, but I think he also meant it as in because he is such a good guy I think he would have accepted(As well as being very disappointed of course) if she had chosen the guy before him as long as she gave love a chance.

You are right Julia he did for the most part manipulate Donna for himself, but I think part of him did also care about her faith in love he just very overly hoped that he would be the guy she would choose. But again as long as she gave love a chance I think he would have accepted and respected her choice if it was not him. Because he is a good guy and he I don't think he meant to be selfish he just loved her a lot which is exactly why he would accept any choice she may have made. Because thats what you do when you love someone you want what makes them happy even if you are not part of that.

I am not saying his selfish acts are ok but that he makes them out of love not evilness. Its the kind of selfish that is normal and makes someone human. I mean if the opportunity presented itself would you let a loved one die or suffer for a complete stranger?

 

[asearcher]

Selfishness

1. His family. Of COURSE he had something to get out of it. He would live through those times since he didn't leap until later. So...by dealing with the things that would fixed things in his family, he wouldn't have to live with the guilt that plagued him through the years. In the long run, it is ALL about how Sam percieved the situations. Do I think he was evil? No...no one said it was evil intention. Selfishness is seldom purely evil...it is more self-centered.

2. Donna. Yeah..but keep in mind. Donna lost her father when she was 9 years old. So...even if Sam helps her in early college, she still have numerous years that she felt abandoned. Thus, when Sam leaps not once but twice, how do you think that affects Donna. Add to that the fact that although he PROMISES to come back, he never does. Ultimate abandonment to one to whom abandonment is the ultimate statement that one does not love them. Yeah...Great for Donna. I don't think Sam really tought this much through other than his own selfish desire to have Donna in his life.

(to the Donna fans...sorry...but I just find the Donna/Sam relationship to have been a mistake in the QL mythology. My opinion.)

 

[LadyKayoss]

Wow, I had no idea this would turn into a discussion on the nature of evil.

The only problem would be that Sam would never surrender to it and nothing could make him unless it meant the life of someone he loved which would mean he would be doing it for good, so really he would still be good deep down. Sam has the kind of strong goodness that just can't be changed.

Evil for the sake of good is still evil. But if you want to believe good always triumphs, you probably shouldn't read my fiction...

Just wanted to throw in this thought. I can imagine that Al would sell his soul to the devil if he thought that's what it would take to keep Sam alive. Al would be the one more likely to compromise. Al is a survivor, but Sam has the greater moral strength. He's the one who would accept the cost of refusing to serve the dark side. How that would play into a story is open for interpretation. It's just an aspect of the characters that I think is interesting on this topic.

Ah-ha! This is kind of what I was thinking here. I can see Al doing something like this for Sam, and then concealing it from him. Sam trusts Al; Al could easily guide Sam to do evil without him realizing it, as long as the task seems innocent. And imagine what Sam would do once he found out what Al had done, what lengths he'd go to to free his friend. Ah, the potential!

LadyKayoss, this is a really intriguing idea. It's something I'd be curious to explore and you've got my Plot Bunnies plotting (which generally means I'm going to have some nights with little sleep. )

Oh, sure, I manage to inspire someone else's Plot Bunnies, while my own continue to just sit there in a stupor. And sorry for causing sleepless nights; that wasn't my intention! :lol But if you're interested, we could discuss this in DC...

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Evil for the sake of good is still evil. But if you want to believe good always triumphs, you probably shouldn't read my fiction...

Yes it is, I did not meant to imply otherwise. Just saying that its probably the only way Sam would ever willingly agree to ally himself with the forces of evil. Much like Snish proposed about Al giving his soul to the Devil for Sam.(I still think thats really creepy though hehe). Sorry if I am soiling the conversation, I kind of am feeling like this little kid in a room of older adults and am just saying stupid kid things because I don't know as much as you all. hehe. I think I am amoung the youngest here compared to most of you since members like Samantha Beckett and Als Handlink don't come around much anymore.

Anyway, I wonder what would have happened to Sam though if the forces of Good and Evil had fought over him leaving him nothing to do and nowhere to go until its decided.

 

[Lightning McQueenie]

Imagine if Al was evil...

Oh wait, he already was in the B@@gieman...

Goes and watches...

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Imagine if Al was evil...

Oh wait, he already was in the B@@gieman...

Goes and watches...

Lol, exactly why Snish's idea is cool but really creepy. Dean does such an awesome job as the Devil. He even has the look and raspy(from smoking) voice for it too. It makes the thought of the real Al being evil creepy.

Just to clarify though Al was not actually evil in the boogiem*n, it was satin desguised as Al. Al was stuck at the project unable to open the imaging chamber as he tells Sam upon finally appearing at the end.

 

[Lightning McQueenie]

Well duh But yeah that idea is awesome. Imagine if the devil had managaed to prevent Al from coming... he could have fooled Sam into doing his evil deeds...

 

[Sam Beckett Fan]

Well duh But yeah that idea is awesome. Imagine if the devil had managaed to prevent Al from coming... he could have fooled Sam into doing his evil deeds...

Thats true, that would have been scary. Sam probably would have tried to resist. That would have been quite a twist on our hero.

 

[Lightning McQueenie]

But if the devil had played his cards right and done it with enough subtlety, he could have tricked Sam into thinking he was putting things right, but was really putting them wrong...

 

[LadyKayoss]

Sorry if I am soiling the conversation, I kind of am feeling like this little kid in a room of older adults and am just saying stupid kid things because I don't know as much as you all. hehe. I think I am amoung the youngest here compared to most of you since members like Samantha Beckett and Als Handlink don't come around much anymore.

*blinks* And now that I think about it, it's really sad. Guess I'm just getting cynical in my age. But it makes people more fascinating when thy aren't just Good or Bad, in my opinion.

But if the devil had played his cards right and done it with enough subtlety, he could have tricked Sam into thinking he was putting things right, but was really putting them wrong...

Which is what I was thinking. It'd be so easy for something that seems like the right thing to do to turn out very, very wrong. And imagine Sam's horror when he realizes just who he's been working for this whole time! Ah, the drama...

 

[LadyKayoss]

Since I asked the question, I should probably put in my two cents worth, huh? *grins*

All right, this was what I was thinking. It didn't occur to me to have Al actually sell his soul to the devil, like snish suggested (and I really enjoyed!), but I can see Al keeping the true nature of the entity Sam is working for to protect Sam. I can imagine Al guiding Sam to do things that seem right at the time, but have disastrous consequences in the future. And since it's been proven that the devil can take Al's form, I can imagine the havoc wreaked if Al refuses to make Sam do something so the devil fills in for him... As for Sam, with his memory nearly gone (this starts with his first leap, remember?) he'd be easy to manipulate at first. Also, I can imagine Sam's horror in finding out the truth, and how he'd do what he could to save Al and everyone at the project until he can find a way to free them all.

There are a lot of ideas that could be done with this. Anyone else think an AU fanzine of tales like this would be fun? LOL.